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EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

bbc.com

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Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#241

Post by alkonaut »

tchalla wrote: post #58
matkoniecz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plane was not forced to land, but landed due to technical malfunction > pilots requested emergency landing due to issues with fuel level indicators and thus inability to confirm sufficient amount of fuel to continue flight Though problem was triggered by France, Italy, Spain and Portugal refused to allow transit. There is difference between hijacking plane using fighter jet and refusal to allow transit. Both with bla…

> Plane was not forced to land, but landed due to technical malfunction Belarus also claims that the plane was landed due to a bomb threat. France and Spain apologised to Morales/Bolivia after that incident.

> Belarus also claims that the plane was landed due to a bomb threat.

Yes. But the pilot doesn't.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#242

Post by frereubu »

Aeolun wrote: post #235

I don’t understand how any of this stuff is even ok. If any random person had done this, the police would be after them to arrest them for kidnapping, but because it’s a nation state doing this the only thing that happens is closed airspace? I feel like there should be something we can do that wouldn’t be a slap on the wrist.

It's not. Lukashenko is bankrolled by Putin. You react too aggressively to Lukashenko and you're not just taking on Belarus, you're taking on Russia. Then Russia starts throttling gas supplies to Europe and so on and so on. As the sibling comment says, geopolitics are complicated.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#243

Post by flurdy »

alkonaut wrote: post #188
tremon wrote: post #97

Only half-related detail, the European track cycling championships are in Minsk next month: http://www.uec.ch/en/event/149/2021-uec-track-elite-european... The Dutch cycling union is now recommending its athletes not to compete there.

The IIHF World Hockey Championships should have taken right now in Minsk and Riga. They are currently taking place only in Riga. I'm sure no one regrets that decision right now. Unfortunately Belarus were allowed to participate.

There was also a controversy over the removal of Belarusian flags in Riga yesterday: https://twitter.com/IIHFHockey/status/1397115536815935491

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#244

Post by scoopertrooper »

Aeolun wrote: post #235

I don’t understand how any of this stuff is even ok. If any random person had done this, the police would be after them to arrest them for kidnapping, but because it’s a nation state doing this the only thing that happens is closed airspace? I feel like there should be something we can do that wouldn’t be a slap on the wrist.

It's not okay, but international relations are not like personal relations. There is no police force to arrest the guilty. It's really the law of the jungle with a few marginal-to-non-enforceable 'laws' sprinkled on top.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#245

Post by planetis »

ACS_Solver wrote: post #86
planetis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1) I am not supporting also this one, especially as it was a sad case of vassalisation Don't get me wrong I agree. > 2) Refusing to allow use of airspace is different from hijacking plane and abducting people. If someone is using "state piracy" only for the second one it is entirely defensible. Not much different the plane was forced to land in Austria. Also this was a diplomatic mission, unlike commercial flights…

> Also this was a diplomatic mission, unlike commercial flights they had absolutely NO jurisdiction to act like this. This is, unsurprisingly, wrong. The situation Evo Morales' plane was wrong, and was caused by several EU countries shamefully bending to America's manhunt for Snowden, but it was well within jurisdiction. Three countries closed their airspace to the plane, which they were fully within their rights to…

Thanks for correcting me, however I consider it an example of double standards. The manhunt for whistleblower Snowden, is according to you justified. The man who revealed the mass surveillance the US is engaged in. Which by itself is beyond any point of legality. However everyone is "enraged" now by the arrest of a Belarusian anti-government journalist and propose sanctions against the country which will affect their already crippling economy.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#246

Post by alkonaut »

ddddq wrote: post #238
axiosgunnar wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Poland is such an unfree country that the journalist that Belarus arrested had willingly applied for (and received) asylum status in Poland.

I don't get how people still put Poland (and Hungary) on the same level with Belarus or China. Both are democratic nations with just a right wing leadership and political system. And european right wing is more left wing than the Democrats in the US in many social policies. Poland isn't Northkorea or China, despite how the media likes to portray them so. They are way more democratic than the last Trump administration…

Poland, and Hungary even worse, are trending authoritarian/undemocratic. There is still a very long way to go before they even begin to approach totalitarian dictatorships like Belarus or China (or even Russia).

But to me Poland and Hungary are more immediately worrying because they are EU countries and they only very recently took a turn for less independent courts, less free media and so on. There is still time to change course there, while in Belarus there isn't.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#247

Post by simonh »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #205
mjfisher wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true - it's also worth explicitly noting that when the EU does make law directly, that is still done in a fully democratic way. The fact that that EU laws can override national laws does not mean that the EU Commission has unilaterally imposed law without consent. Law changes must first must be approved by the Council - comprising heads of state - and then by the EU parliament, consisting of directly elected r…

> fully democratic ... by the EU parliament, consisting of directly elected representatives I'd argue a full democracy would be democracy by plebiscite. Whether representative or direct democracy is better is an open question.

To me, full democracy just means a democratic system which enjoys the consent of the majority of the people. It could be parliamentary, presidential, proportional representation, direct democracy, whatever. I don't think outsiders or third parties have a right to decide whether a system of rule that enjoys the support of the people 'counts' or not.

That's entirely independent of my view that direct democracy is a terrible mistake because it decouples responsibility for making a decision from responsibility for implementing it *. However, if you can persuade a population that it's right for them, then fine.

* We can see this with the Brexit referendum. For 2 years the UK had a government and parliament that didn't want to leave the EU responsible for implementing legislation and a treaty to leave it. The result was political paralysis. Fortunately we now have a government aligned with the goal, but that's just pure luck.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#248

Post by Aeolun »

frereubu wrote: post #242
Aeolun wrote: post #235

I don’t understand how any of this stuff is even ok. If any random person had done this, the police would be after them to arrest them for kidnapping, but because it’s a nation state doing this the only thing that happens is closed airspace? I feel like there should be something we can do that wouldn’t be a slap on the wrist.

It's not. Lukashenko is bankrolled by Putin. You react too aggressively to Lukashenko and you're not just taking on Belarus, you're taking on Russia. Then Russia starts throttling gas supplies to Europe and so on and so on. As the sibling comment says, geopolitics are complicated.

I think it’s really simple.

It’s like walking away from the bully because you don’t like to fight (or are afraid you’ll get hurt), they’ll just do it again next time since the only thing that was reinforced was that there are no consequences.

It’s just larger in scale.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#249

Post by alkonaut »

nomercy400 wrote: post #91

I am surprised Hungary agreed. And Poland. The governments in those nations are not shy to touch on the freedoms of their population, and often disagree with the EU when the EU points these things out. Also Poland being directly next to Belarus will affect their relations.

Hungary, yes. Poland I think is less surprising. It's been mostly Hungary that has had the reservations recently about other countries' inner affairs recently.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#250

Post by omgtehlion »

Sporktacular wrote: post #224

Politically convenient amnesia is on full display again: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/24/opinion/belarus-plane-pro... The US pressured Austria to do the same - for a head of state's airplane - while looking for Snowden. It's not whataboutism - both are abuses of power, but the sanctimony is just unbearable.

Yeah, but at least this have one minor difference: in Austria it was a government plane, lukashenka hijacked a civil plane.
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