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EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

bbc.com

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Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#231

Post by dkirill »

morelisp wrote: post #191
dkirill wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lukashenko already has much less than 50% support of the ppl and he has lost his last elections. But he holds the power by force. What do you want Belorussians to do, go and die fighting the police?

> What do you want Belorussians to do, go and die fighting the police? I mean it sucks like hell, but this is how most countries (and most oppressed minority groups within most countries) did it. Do you think it would be better if the EU took the US approach and rolled in their own armies? That doesn't have a good record of working either.

No, I don't want any foreign army in the Belarus obviously. My point is that Lukashenko already lost support of majority of Belorussians, so making life worse for common people does nothing except it produces unnecessary misery.

I agree that taking down the government by force is probably the only option left now for them. Belorussians are people who already were unfortunate enough to be born in post soviet dictatorship, yet a lot of overly privileged people in USA and EU have this sentiment that being ruled by Luka is fault of the people, completely ignoring the circumstances like Belarus being in the sphere of influence of Russia.

I mean all westerners have to do to shape the government is to attend elections, but it's not the same in dictatorships. The expectation that young people have to die fighting the regime instead of enjoying their youth like people in the West is very unfair.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#233

Post by petre »

fy20 wrote: post #63
stanpinte wrote: post #26

This is not exact, the EU ban decision is not taken yet. see link here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021... "- calls on the Council to adopt the necessary measures to ban overflight of EU airspace by Belarusian airlines and prevent access to EU airports of flights operated by such airlines;" decision has still to be made by the council, and then - to my understanding - implemented by all m…

If it's restricting flights over their airspace then it only really needs Poland, Lithuania and Latvia. And I'm sure they would be quick to implement such a ruling, as even before this incident they weren't on the best of terms with Belarus.

It's important that the EU acts as a block.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#234

Post by toyg »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #159
toyg wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying a kid is the property of his family...? Anyway, citizenship matters, it is one of the many elements that determine jurisdiction. The US taxes and prosecutes (!) his citizens anywhere in the world, for example; and extradition is a thing. Legal protection to a foreign citizen abroad is extended by the host country, and that's really what the problem is here: the journalist was effectively protected by E…

> Are you saying a kid is the property of his family...? As far as kidnapping or any other kind of forced movement goes, yes basically.

I think you'll find quite a few legal systems currently disagree with that perspective. I'll give you that it's often the traditional perspective, but the children's wellbeing is increasingly the leading priority of related legislation in developed countries, including on issues like forced movement.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#235

Post by Aeolun »

I don’t understand how any of this stuff is even ok.

If any random person had done this, the police would be after them to arrest them for kidnapping, but because it’s a nation state doing this the only thing that happens is closed airspace?

I feel like there should be something we can do that wouldn’t be a slap on the wrist.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#237

Post by simonh »

refactor_master wrote: post #183
londons_explore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market…

The free market has a pretty terrible track record when it comes to human rights, though. What would countries stand to gain from this, realistically? No country wants economic refugees.

Does the not-free market have a better track record?

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#238

Post by ddddq »

axiosgunnar wrote: post #211
nomercy400 wrote: post #91

I am surprised Hungary agreed. And Poland. The governments in those nations are not shy to touch on the freedoms of their population, and often disagree with the EU when the EU points these things out. Also Poland being directly next to Belarus will affect their relations.

Yes, Poland is such an unfree country that the journalist that Belarus arrested had willingly applied for (and received) asylum status in Poland.

I don't get how people still put Poland (and Hungary) on the same level with Belarus or China. Both are democratic nations with just a right wing leadership and political system. And european right wing is more left wing than the Democrats in the US in many social policies.

Poland isn't Northkorea or China, despite how the media likes to portray them so. They are way more democratic than the last Trump administration, even if that doesn't mean much to be honest.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#239

Post by petre »

oblio wrote: post #108
stanpinte wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see how it evolves: I think every country shall make its cost-benefit analysis, and the ones with nothing or very little to lose shall ban. I would bet on medium compliance.

The thing is, to put it bluntly, it's Belarus. Almost all of them have nothing to lose. I imagine air traffic over Belarus can be avoided with minimal financial losses and Belarus itself only generates a small amount of traffic. Plus some of the countries voting for this are actively hostile to Belarus (I think Lithuania is in that category). The only thing that would make them change their minds is if Russia reacts…

Russia could react by operating flights from Minsk using its own companies that have a permit to fly over the EU. Otherwise this is in fact doing the Kremlin a service since it makes Belarus even more dependent on Russia. Lukashenko has been digging his own hole when he ordered that the plane be diverted to Minsk in order to arrest that poor guy and his girlfriend. Now his only "friend" is Putin.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#240

Post by matwood »

Aeolun wrote: post #235

I don’t understand how any of this stuff is even ok. If any random person had done this, the police would be after them to arrest them for kidnapping, but because it’s a nation state doing this the only thing that happens is closed airspace? I feel like there should be something we can do that wouldn’t be a slap on the wrist.

Welcome to the real world. Geopolitics are...complicated.
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