Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace • Hacker News Board

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#311

Post by tuyguntn » Mon, May 24, 2021, 8:45 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #269

tuyguntn wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.un.org/un70/en/content/history/index.html > The United Nations is an international organization founded in 1945 after the Second World War by 51 countries committed to maintaining international peace and security , developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights. If UN is committed to do something good for having better living standards a…

You can think what you want, but the reality is that the majority of the world still lives in poverty and ignorance, with all that it entails (and even the well-educated are not exactly guaranteed to have the same priorities as you, e.g. Israel). If you go around invading every human-right-violatin' piece of land, very soon you won't have an army. The UN has its issues, like the League of Nations before that, but it'…

> If you go around invading every human-right-violatin

I am not saying invading, what I am saying is taking real actions by sanctioning all equally, not just sanctioning Russia because some EU countries or the US doesn't like it, but also sanction Saudi Arabia and Israel for violating human rights.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#312

Post by GauntletWizard » Mon, May 24, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

SpaceRaccoon wrote: post #308

ddalex wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the event that you are not a Russian troll, let me explain two key differences: The Morales jet was warned ahead of time in a legal way, not intercepted and forced to land in an unintended destination. No persons from the Morales jet were detained. One is an lawful act (perhaps imoral in some way) , and one is an arbitrary act outside of any lawful framework . I hope this clears the confusion.

Morales plane was searched. If Snowden was on it, he would have been detained. It's not that Belarus' actions are admissable. It's that the West is acting in a hypocritical way. If Belarus had as much power as the US, they surely would have followed the same route and forced all the surrounding nations to close their airspace. The end result would be the same.

The same end result achieved by legal or illegal means is more than enough difference. One is performed by the consent of many, the other by thuggery of few.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#313

Post by ddalex » Mon, May 24, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

SpaceRaccoon wrote: post #308

ddalex wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the event that you are not a Russian troll, let me explain two key differences: The Morales jet was warned ahead of time in a legal way, not intercepted and forced to land in an unintended destination. No persons from the Morales jet were detained. One is an lawful act (perhaps imoral in some way) , and one is an arbitrary act outside of any lawful framework . I hope this clears the confusion.

Morales plane was searched. If Snowden was on it, he would have been detained. It's not that Belarus' actions are admissable. It's that the West is acting in a hypocritical way. If Belarus had as much power as the US, they surely would have followed the same route and forced all the surrounding nations to close their airspace. The end result would be the same.

It was searched according to the local law where it landed. Nobody forced them to land in Austria - could have just as easily returned to Moscow.

The stark difference between the way the West does it is that you have a choice whenever to comply or pick an alternative, whereas Belarus left no choice.

EU, as a matter of routine, forbids certain persons from entering their airspace, has refused entry countless times to planes (some of them airborne) based on passenger manifests. Nobody would have batted an eye if Belarus would have done the same.

Pointing a gun (armed MiG fighter) at a civilian airplane based on who is a passenger using a deceptive pretext, outside laws and regulations, is several orders of magnitudes worse than lawful application of rules. If you fail to see why, read about habeas corpus.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#314

Post by morelisp » Mon, May 24, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #255

morelisp wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No use of airspace is already being discussed and likely going to happen. NATO is a military alliance, not a trade union. There's no way for them to organize what you're suggesting. > It would take a week. Fidel might like to have a word with you...

NATO members do talk to each other over a lot of different channels. It will take more than a week to organize, but it can be done.

But it will be as e.g. an EU action, not a NATO action. (I have doubts they will get anyone on the west side of the Atlantic to sign on, but I hope I'm wrong.) And the EU has already been acting.

My point is: There's a lot of people in this thread demanding a vague "something" be done, but it's really not clear whether there is "something" between what the EU's plan has already been for months and a hot war, other than some ill-considered immediate panic.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#315

Post by varjag » Mon, May 24, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

proxysna wrote: post #157

varjag wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the same spot. When I was leaving the country after then-"election" in 2006, I had to wait until the engineer I was handing the project over to finished his 30-day prison sentence. This year even my ever optimistic friends who were never intent to move have been sent packing. The hijacking makes things even worse for the unwillingly growing Belarusian diaspora, but there should not be mucking around. I advocat…

My close circle of friends, mostly moved to nearby countries Estonia, Ukraine, Poland and even Russia. One family has returned because they got homesick and being an immigrant is generally hard. But no one is planning to stay in Belarus, right now you can't be sure that tommorow you won't become a criminal without any guilt of your own and it is not getting any better. And anything that hurts regime is worth it, no m…

Aye. And in my age cohort noone really emigrates unless they are really compelled by circumstances.

But now it appears we're getting some pushback from the EU. Less than I hoped (so far), but more than I feared.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#316

Post by abc789654567 » Mon, May 24, 2021, 9:15 PM UTC

sunstone wrote: post #260

European countries should now close their air space to any flights in or out of Belarus until this guy is surrendered in good health.

I can predict exactly what European countries will do in response to this horrible atrocity. They will express the deepest of all possible concerns. That's all they'll do. In fact that's all they can do. They simply don't have any other alternative.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#317

Post by dvfjsdhgfv » Mon, May 24, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

petre wrote: post #277

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Belarus aside, which ones? Because I can't think of any. Seriously, it's been over thirty years since the end of Cold War and people still think there are some eastern European states associated with Russia... Almost all of them are in the EU now with the notable exception of Ukraine which is in a state of de facto war with Russia. Even Lukashenko has a bitter-sweet relationship with Putin.

There's still Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaidjan. Technically, the Caucasus region is still in Europe.

Of these, Georgians are as anti-Kremlin as one could be, they were at open war against Russia in 2008. Armenia is a pro-European democracy. Azerbaijan, probably the least democratic of these, doesn't long for Kremlin either. In general, all eastern-European countries were happy to become independent from Russia and there is no reason for them to choose Russia over the EU.

So one would never refer to them as "Russia and associated eastern european states" because, frankly speaking, Kremlin has no friends in Eastern Europe. (I specifically differentiate between Kremlin with its cold-blooded war crimes, and Russian people, who are normal nice folks and are a significant part of the total population of Eastern Europe.)

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#318

Post by jopsen » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:17 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #302

ryanlol wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn’t even remotely similar. Those EU countries didn’t allow the plane into their airspace, encouraging it to land in a third country to refuel. Belarus called in a fake bomb threat and used their fighter jets to force a passenger flight to land in their territory, not to mention the KGB officers on board making a scene. Outcome might be similar, but it’s specifically the tactics used which make this unacceptab…

>Those EU countries didn’t allow the plane into their airspace, encouraging it to land in a third country to refuel. Seems like a trivial difference. Denying access to your airspace comes with the implicit threat of fighter interception.

It a huge difference... You're suggesting there is a conspiracy a foot. When in practice it's quite likely France, Spain, etc. just denied access because then the diplomatic hot potato wouldn't be theirs :)

And I'm hindsight Austria probably regrets they didn't deny access too, because then the potato wouldn't have landed on their soil.

It's not very bold to say: "pass don't involve me", but it's not necessarily a conspiracy to intercept a plane. That would have to involve a lot of people, and would probably leak..

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#319

Post by jopsen » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:23 PM UTC

avereveard wrote: post #230

jopsen wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it's the slow and steady diplomacy that affects the biggest change over time. What good is quick action going to do? It might be better to let this guide trading policies in the future.

for the guy that's being detained (or worse) right now every minute kind of counts

It's cold, but in the long run one person probably doesn't matter that much.

No offense to Archduke Franz Ferdinand, but he probably wasn't worth trouble :)

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#320

Post by pydry » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:53 PM UTC

mopsi wrote: post #264

pydry wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not to you. I think they'll make effective use of whataboutism on Belarussian state TV and newspapers. The similarities make it almost too easy for them.

I wouldn't call that particularly effective. Everyone but the most braindead vatniks know that's bullshit. Lies, lies and further lies just like in the USSR. No amount of propaganda can mask how shitty the life is. There's no reason whatsoever why Belarus couldn't be enjoying the same quality of life as their direct neighbours in the west, they were at the same starting point in 1991 after all. Limited travel is stil…

>Everyone but the most braindead vatniks know that's bullshit. Lies, lies and further lies just like in the USSR.

https://www.rt.com/usa/524710-psaki-belarus-bolivia-plane/

RT is already mocking the very same press secretary who justified doing this to get Snowden in 2013 for getting outraged now as she unconvincing deflects a question about it.

CNN won't show that on your TV but I'll bet Belarussians will get to see it.

This is not going to play out unfavorably for Lukashenko, especially if the US/Europe hits them with sanctions that bite.

>There's no reason whatsoever why Belarus couldn't be enjoying the same quality of life as their direct neighbours in the west

Realistically Ukraine is a closer model for how they'd end up if they rejected Russia and aligned more closely with the West. They are under no illusions that a quick change of allegiance will turn them into Luxembourg.