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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#471

Post by mlindner »

lloeki wrote: post #443
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) CMD+C then CMD+ALT+V I think of it not as copy-paste vs cut-paste but mark-copy vs mark-move. It makes it consistent with drag and drop where alt is the modifier for copy vs move (the default depending on whether it's same disk vs another one)

There's no Alt key on a Mac.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#472

Post by hdctambien »

dsego wrote: post #441
tsimionescu wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For whatever reason, Windows has cut attached to selecting the file That is the universal way copy/cut&paste work, everywhere outside the Mac Finder.

Everywhere being windows and linux file managers that copied windows?

And "real life" cutting and pasting that the metaphor was based on (scrapbooking, ransom notes, etc...)

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#473

Post by klodolph »

ubercow13 wrote: post #431
klodolph wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, not going to claim that macOS is "intuitive", because my in my experience, "intuitive" usually means very different things to different people. As a long-time Mac, Windows, and Linux user... I'll say that there are plenty of random broken things on the Mac, but there are also a few nice things that work very consistently on the Mac, but you'd never think to try them because you're used to them not working on L…

Unless I’m misunderstanding, 1, 2 and 3 all work the same way on Linux, at least in GTK and I think Qt too

I think you're going to have to provide some more details, because I'm trying 1, 2, and 3 in GTK and I can't get ANY of the three options to work.

1. I have a folder open in Gnome's "Files" app. I can't drag it into the dialog--there's nothing draggable. I could go up a level to the enclosing folder, drag the child folder into the save folder, and then go back down a level to the child folder... these extra steps seem a bit unnecessary. So it's doable, but clunky.

2. I saved a file in GEdit somewhere else. How do I move it? There is nothing to drag. On macOS, there is an icon in the title bar of the window (called the proxy icon) that can be dragged where you like.

3. I saved the file in GEdit on the desktop as ~/Desktop/file.txt, then moved it to ~/.../.../file.txt. Then I made some more changes in GEdit, and saved it again... now I have two files! GEdit was not aware that the file had moved, and when I saved it, it created a second copy of the file, which is unexpected and wrong.

If this is working for you, perhaps you could share the exact steps?

I think one of the problems here is that on Linux, there is no real way to drag an open object... you can only drag things out of containers, but you can't drag things without first opening the container. For example, you can't drag an open folder into a save window, you have to first open the parent folder. You also can't drag an open document into an open window, you have to open the parent folder. There's not even a clear way to do that--on macOS, you can command-click the name in the title bar of the window and select the parent folder from the drop-down... not saying this is intuitive, but it does work which is a massive step up from not working at all.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#474

Post by pseudalopex »

hagg3n wrote: post #467
samatman wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See I firmly disagree with this. If I have some document editor open, and I close all the documents, what should happen? Should it quit? Well if I wanted to quit, I would have done so. Should it display some blank pane? Why? To let me know it's still running? The menu bar does that! I say it should close that last window, and then I can open up another one and keep working. In other words, I want to have a "menubar-o…

Honest question: Should whether an application is running or not be a concern to you? Why would you ever want to actually quit an application? Granted, I understand that in reality the app might be misbehaving, hogging resources and whatnot and that the underlying OS isn't perfect and we should absolutely have control over how our hardware is utilized, but from a UX PoV I think the notion of a running process isn't o…

I want it out of the task switcher.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#475

Post by timbit42 »

abraxas wrote: post #114
geraneum wrote: post #84

If a certain way of doing things which I am very much used to does not apply to a different environment, it does not mean the subject is not intuitive whether it's macOS, Windows, etc. To me, intuitiveness means how easy it is to operate the system correctly without prior training. Honestly, for a non-tech savvy, macOS and Windows both have many quirks and don't let me start with Linux distros (Fedora is my daily dri…

> We've had a lot of good progress so far but we need to do better. Honestly on the desktop since the days of Windows XP I've only seen regress. I'd even argue that XP was a regress in terms of UI vis-a-vis Windows 95. The only thing that improved is hardware handling (IRQ conflicts resolution etc)

Windows 2000 was the peak.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#476

Post by moogleii »

tsimionescu wrote: post #415
moogleii wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, macOS uses option or shift to modify existing commands. Hence cmd-c / cmd-(opt)-v. The paradigm is Copy -> Move or Duplicate. In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy…

> In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy or cut anymore. That's not just Windows, it is the way the copy/paste model works absolutely everywhere outside Mac's Finder. And there is a cl…

> That's not just Windows, it is the way the copy/paste model works absolutely everywhere outside Mac's Finder. And there is a clear reason why it makes sense, and why the Finder way is just bad UX: the decision about what happens in location X should always be done when you are in location X.

Hmm, the first part isn't convincing. To me that sounds like "everyone else is doing it" and not much different than arguing between left side vs right side driving, when there could be a third way, like teleportation. Not saying Finder is quite that much of a shift, but Finder's method does have semantical differences, and not just "hey we're cmd+n/m for cut/copy".

As for the second part, I think that's an intriguing argument, but "bad UX" seems like a stretch. If it were truly always decided in location X, would you have to return to location X to cancel your copy/cut? No, because that would be far too strict. It also depends on what your mental model is of what has been decided at location X.

On macOS: I have decided I want to manipulate the data in this file at location X. I can decide to copy or move it later at location Y.

On Windows: I have decided I want to cut XOR copy this file at location X. I can decide location Y later.

I personally like the ability to chain my decisions after. Based on your edit, I guess you've already discovered, but yes on macOS, you can issue a copy command once, then duplicate it and/or move it as many times as you want, to multiple places, even if you choose a move command first. Only location X's copy is altered if doing a move.

I'm not even sure if that would be possible on Windows without going back and forth between location X and Y to switch between copy and cut (my wintel machine is down at the moment).

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#477

Post by geraltofrivia »

pmontra wrote: post #218
geraltofrivia wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but I run elementary OS 5.1.7 Hera, built on Ubuntu 18.04.4 LTS, Linux 5.4.0-65-generic. Its more stable than it used to be, but the desktop manager still keeps hanging every fortnight or so. Changing the brightness, right after unlocking my laptop is a recipe for getting frustrated, and eventually having to hard restart the computer. Other micro issues pop up every now and then.

Basically every laptop is unsupported or best effort / best luck on Linux (except System 76 and the like.) My brightness control keys use to work or not according to the kernel and the NVIDIA driver versions. I configured two hotkeys to increase and decrease backlightining with X11 and forgot about the original ones. However I never got a crash because of them. Maybe the screen froze a couple of times since Ubuntu 20…

Oh I didn't install (on purpose) the NVIDIA drivers in my computer this time around. Last time, the brightness control would stop working, and the GPU would run a 100% of the time my computer was on. Drained battery in about 45 minutes.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#478

Post by w0de0 »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #417

I've been using MacBooks for 8 hours a decade, for over half a decade now, and I still can't figure finder out. Why does the delete key not delete files? How do I create a new file? I can't even figure out how to navigate down a directory. I suppose it's not an issue with Finder specifically, but the fact that macOS defaults to saving your screenshots to Desktop is just terrible. At one point I had hundreds of screen…

If you like spotlight and living in zsh, checkout mdfind!

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#479

Post by SyzygistSix »

geraneum wrote: post #84

If a certain way of doing things which I am very much used to does not apply to a different environment, it does not mean the subject is not intuitive whether it's macOS, Windows, etc. To me, intuitiveness means how easy it is to operate the system correctly without prior training. Honestly, for a non-tech savvy, macOS and Windows both have many quirks and don't let me start with Linux distros (Fedora is my daily dri…

I started with Ubuntu as a complete newbie - no idea about what a hard drive or RAM was - and had no problems. And very few since. Using Mint since Daryna, I've had almost no issues.

I even ran across someone using Peppermint who had no idea they were even using Linux and had no problem using their computer to do the everyday things.

In my experience using Linux, especially the user friendly distros like Ubuntu, Mint, Peppermint, has been dead simple.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#480

Post by com2kid »

moogleii wrote: post #373
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac. For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of things are better. Finder is not one of them. And your answers should give you a hint why it sucks. An empty file is a file that is empty, with the name and extension I chose on the moment I need it. >And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. With the wrong keyboard…

Generally speaking, macOS uses option or shift to modify existing commands. Hence cmd-c / cmd-(opt)-v. The paradigm is Copy -> Move or Duplicate. In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy…

> * Move out or into a directory / into a file or app AKA open it: cmd up/down

3 years of using a Mac now, I would never have figured this out on my own.

IMHO stupid to put the most common operation on a file behind a meta key.

The ratio of how often I rename a file (rarely) vs use a file (often) doesn't come out in favor of this choice.

That said I realize the decision was probably made long long ago and now Apple is just stuck with it.

Still though.

Maybe after another few years I'll figure out the hot key to change between the side pane and the main file list.

(yes I could just look it up, but I do most of my work in terminal and I try to avoid Finder as much as I can, I really dislike using it)

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