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Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

bbc.com

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Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#241

Post by developer93 »

sime2009 wrote: post #93
pbourke wrote: post #21

> The non-native speakers, it turns out, speak more purposefully and carefully, typical of someone speaking a second or third language. Anglophones, on the other hand, often talk too fast for others to follow, and use jokes, slang and references specific to their own culture, says Chong Isn’t this a description of native vs non-native speakers in many languages?

> Isn’t this a description of native vs non-native speakers in many languages? Not necessarily. The key idea from the article in the phrase "specific to their own culture". There isn't one English in the world. There are now many versions which are bound to cultures and differ in the idioms and sayings used. Think about all of the sports based sayings and metaphors you are used to. Many of them won't mean much to Eng…

not just idioms but also pronounciation and grammar, e.g. Indian English has it's own grammatical rules distinct from others, and it certainly also applies to British/US English and others.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#242

Post by developer93 »

tragomaskhalos wrote: post #211
Tarsul wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(not op) well, we Germans are very direct. So we would write something like "Can you give me the coordinates? Thanks in advance." whereas a Brit would like it if it was written as "I would very much like to get the coordinates from you. Can you direct them to me? Thank you very much. Much appreciated." (well, my impersonation of a Brit is not the best since I am too German in this respect)

I'm not convinced by that example: I am British and would use exactly the same phrasing as your first example; the "thanks in advance" takes the edge off it perfectly well. The second example is like a bad impression of a subservient butler or something !

A better example is "that's interesting" meaning "wtf is that? Take it away and burn it" I've had to start specifying "not in the British sense" when using the word.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#243

Post by developer93 »

Tarsul wrote: post #232
tragomaskhalos wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced by that example: I am British and would use exactly the same phrasing as your first example; the "thanks in advance" takes the edge off it perfectly well. The second example is like a bad impression of a subservient butler or something !

yeah, actually it took me a while to get to that point, with the "thanks in advance" :) I think generally my argument holds true (at least a little bit, but it probably also has a lot to do with not being familiar enough with the foreign language) but as with the example in the OP what's even truer is that emails can VERY easily be misunderstood as being unfriendly no matter the language. Which is why it's very impor…

"No offence intended" -> "I don't want to face any consequences for what I'm about to say". Although I had a boss who would say it all the time. It was very stressful because I was constantly trying to work out what it was he just said that might be offensive, leading me to overanalyze and wonder if he was the world's best passive aggressor.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#244

Post by developer93 »

novok wrote: post #183
bsder wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I ended up solving the problem by organizing a very nice lunch, where everyone realized the 'others' were actually nice and friendly human beings, and that email was not always the best way to communicate. Email is terribly crappy. You completely lose language nuance. I always try to give people the biggest benefit of the doubt even when I'm certain that the person on the other side of the email is a raging asshole…

Its more than a face, it's also tone of voice, posture, and so on. With it gone, people tend to assume the worst, because humans are biased to interpreting things in the negative when something is ambiguous.

Being within punching range also has a calming effect on most people.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#245

Post by detaro »

Tarsul wrote: post #209
detaro wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an example/anecdote for the last part? Not sure I know what you mean.

(not op) well, we Germans are very direct. So we would write something like "Can you give me the coordinates? Thanks in advance." whereas a Brit would like it if it was written as "I would very much like to get the coordinates from you. Can you direct them to me? Thank you very much. Much appreciated." (well, my impersonation of a Brit is not the best since I am too German in this respect)

Sure, but I wouldn't have described that as precision necessarily, so I wondered if there's a different nuance I'm missing.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#246

Post by chris_j »

I'm a native English speaker who ironically first encountered the use of English as a lingua franca when I moved to London for the first time. London turned out to be a much more cosmopolitan place than anywhere that I'd lived before and I'd say that around 50% of my colleagues at work were non-native English speakers, as were a similar percentage of the new friends that I made. I quite quickly learned to change the way that I spoke in order to be understood, and I learned that certain words that I'd used all my life were not even recognised internationally. The example that I remember vividly: a Polish colleague had to ask me why I kept saying "ta". Where my family comes from, "ta" is short for "thanks" and I had used it all my life without even thinking about it. It was one small example of the things that I had to try to un-learn in order to be understood in the more international environment that I found myself in.

As the article states, many English speakers are monolingual and probably have a hard time empathising with the struggles that non-native speakers can have with a language. I worry that the situation will only get worse. English is now spoken by so many people in so many places and the incentives (and opportunities) for English speakers to learn other languages are consequently increasingly small.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#247

Post by MathYouF »

henearkr wrote: post #168
Iv wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a French living in Japan one of the things I quickly learned is that if I complain about something while showing even a hint of anger or annoyingness, my interlocutor will take it personally, even if he/she is not involved about the thing as well.

Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration? Japanese people very easily feel compelled to defend their group, because if not they are often treated as "anti-japanese" by the most right-wing (which are the most vocal) of their relations/neighbors. This in turn leads to a lot of self-censorship.

Japanese feel compelled to defend their group because a lot of foreigners impose their cultural expectations on them, and misunderstand the intent behind why certain things are done the way they're done. And because they genuinely love their society/culture.

Never met a single far right Japanese nationalist living there over a year. But nearly all looked at the pros and cons of their society, and felt theirs were better than the list other countries had, for providing a life they wanted to live, and don't care about how those align with other countries interpretation of those things.

Your explanation is one I've often heard from people whose main Japanese friends are the "far left" who have spent significant time living outside of Japan by choice, hardly a group that could be said to represent the average Japanese person. Most Japanese also just find emotionally charged complaint to be disrespectful, even if it's not about Japan. There's a lot to learn about the nuances of their culture, a simple explanation is usually very incorrect, and might not even be a contributing factor.

Curious to hear where your explanation of vocal right wing neighbors comes from.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#248

Post by MathYouF »

skhr0680 wrote: post #221
henearkr wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow I had the same "backfire" experience saying that the neighbor/neighborhood ("kinjo") was forcing stupid behavior on them and that they were not compelled to obey them nor to fear them. To me it seemed like the kinjo is too hot an issue to criticize. OR maybe, obeying to the kinjo is virtue signaling, and criticizing their decision to obey is denying their virtue. It did not occcur to me that it could be a more de…

> To me it seemed like the kinjo is too hot an issue to criticize. OR maybe, obeying to the kinjo is virtue signaling, and criticizing their decision to obey is denying their virtue. I think the third option is that are just as frustrated about the rules as you, but what are they going to do about them? From their perspective, it’s easier to suck it up and be free to get on with their lives as opposed to rocking the…

You've both just completely missed the real underlying thing going on in that situation.

To the Japanese person, the main question on their mind is is the thing the village council is telling them to do in the best interests of the community and their neighbors.

To question of if the village has the legal authority to make them do something, and implying that if they don't then the Japanese person has no more problems, misses the fact their their real struggle is deciding how to be a good neighbor and citizen. Obeying the village government isn't the virtue they're "signaling", caring about being a good neighbor or member of society is the virtue they actually have and maybe the cost of being one is really the issue, or lamenting over if it's necessary to do what was asked to be a good citizen.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#249

Post by henearkr »

MathYouF wrote: post #248
skhr0680 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me it seemed like the kinjo is too hot an issue to criticize. OR maybe, obeying to the kinjo is virtue signaling, and criticizing their decision to obey is denying their virtue. I think the third option is that are just as frustrated about the rules as you, but what are they going to do about them? From their perspective, it’s easier to suck it up and be free to get on with their lives as opposed to rocking the…

You've both just completely missed the real underlying thing going on in that situation. To the Japanese person, the main question on their mind is is the thing the village council is telling them to do in the best interests of the community and their neighbors. To question of if the village has the legal authority to make them do something, and implying that if they don't then the Japanese person has no more problem…

The "good" neighbor/citizen is the one able to explain how to improve on a flawed rule.

The avoidance of conflict extends to an avoidance of even merely justifying oneself, or of any "rational" (rikei) discussion.

Almost each time I start a rational discussion with somebody in Japan, except in an engineering context, I get a very negative reaction and I'm seen as a trouble-maker.

I don't think it is very sane to have rules that virtually nobody dares to refine or fix.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#250

Post by henearkr »

MathYouF wrote: post #247
henearkr wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration? Japanese people very easily feel compelled to defend their group, because if not they are often treated as "anti-japanese" by the most right-wing (which are the most vocal) of their relations/neighbors. This in turn leads to a lot of self-censorship.

Japanese feel compelled to defend their group because a lot of foreigners impose their cultural expectations on them, and misunderstand the intent behind why certain things are done the way they're done. And because they genuinely love their society/culture. Never met a single far right Japanese nationalist living there over a year. But nearly all looked at the pros and cons of their society, and felt theirs were bet…

First of all, you need to understand that many Japanese people want to change their country. Yes, in Japan too, "left" and "right" are 50/50.

The recognition that a form of organization is imperfect is very different from "not loving it".

For example I want to improve the way my computer program works, that does not mean I hate it, that's pretty much the contrary.

As much as I love Japan, I want it to be better. New problems have emerged that did not exist in the past, so the mistake is to change nothing.

(I say "I", but that extends to Japanese people who share this view too.)

Most of the people who want to improve the society (they are often labelled "progressives", yes I feel I belong to this side) meet the opposition of people that want to keep it as it is ("conservatives").

The problem is when "progressives" are depicted as "anti-", here as anti-Japanese, by some of the most extremist "conservatives".

You seem to make the same association, and I'd like to inform you that this is right-wing propaganda, and it is obviously an erroneous fallacy.

So, as you have yourself integrated this fallacy, it means that you have been at least in indirect contact with the right-wing ideology, even if you seem to not be aware.

This association of terms prevents any movement.

The reality is that there are no "anti-Japanese" and "pro-Japanese", only "pro-{new,futuristic,improved}-Japan" and "pro-{traditional,old,unchanged}-Japan".

And the funny part is that in "old Japan" some conservatives want to go further in the past, but then they need to take an arbitrary reference in time. They like the Meiji period, but on many aspects Japan from the Heian period was way more "progressive" than nowadays and than what they are prepared to accept.

One more element I'd like to answer to you is why you did not notice any "progressive" people around you. They are very quiet. Because of the pressure created by a part of the society, they tend to keep it to themselves. For example, I discovered only last month that a neighbor was vegan (as I am, too), and she never reveals it because it invariably attracts harsh and negative comments on her from some other Japanese people (the "vocal conservatives" which I was speaking about). I categorize veganism as a progressive characteristic, and reciprocally it is absolutely labelled as anti-Japanese by people (okay let me say they are right-wing?) on Twitter for example.

Last but not least, let me precise that when I say "improved Japan" I do not mean "westernized Japan", as you seemed to imply in your critic too. On the contrary, I think that the path to the future is not yet showcased by any existing country, it has to be crafted.

PS: Oh, and several years ago I was very "conservative" regarding Japan, I had pink glasses and was in unconditional love with every single aspect of it to the point that I was blind to the problems even when they slapped me in the face. So I understand you, I was there before.

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