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Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

bbc.com

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Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#161

Post by Iv »

Agingcoder wrote: post #85

There is another aspect beyond raw vocabulary and grammar, and that's unspoken cultural assumptions :not abbreviations and slang, but real misunderstandings caused by different understandings of what seems to be a set of perfectly obvious sentences to both sides . A branch of my company went through a merger with another branch in a different country, and with a different language. Needless to say, it was difficult,…

As a French living in Japan one of the things I quickly learned is that if I complain about something while showing even a hint of anger or annoyingness, my interlocutor will take it personally, even if he/she is not involved about the thing as well.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#162

Post by skyde »

Agingcoder wrote: post #85

There is another aspect beyond raw vocabulary and grammar, and that's unspoken cultural assumptions :not abbreviations and slang, but real misunderstandings caused by different understandings of what seems to be a set of perfectly obvious sentences to both sides . A branch of my company went through a merger with another branch in a different country, and with a different language. Needless to say, it was difficult,…

what do you mean by 'forcefully' but very indirectly.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#163

Post by jcrites »

Iv wrote: post #159
markdown wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A: "Should I launch the nukes?" B: "Fuck no" A: *Initiates launch*

Laugh, but talking with Japanese, something that often happens is: A: "Shouldn't I launch the nukes?" B: "No." Can be understood as "yes, do it" because they are used to an opposite logic when answering negation. "Yes" means "I agree with the negation" and no the opposite. And they seem to have a hard time accepting that the logic is different in English.

That's an ambiguous question in native English too and could only be fully, precisely understood from context.

While I would interpret the sentence from only the context you provided in the way that you describe, I would characterize the question as unclear. A military chain of command would definitely phrase the question more like "Mr. President, can you confirm you are giving us the order to launch the nukes? Please present your confirmation code."

But I understand what you mean about negations having opposite meanings in (spoken) English (where context is clearer). I consider that kind of negation and answer to be sloppy written grammar and something to avoid in written English.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#164

Post by hardwaregeek »

Funnily enough I’ve had to explain this to my friends when ordering in Chinese or other ethic restaurants. Something like “hi, how are you? I’d like the roast duck with rice please, oh and with a Diet Coke too?” is actually quite confusing and a lot to parse when you’re a native Cantonese speaker rushing to serve 30 people. Instead “roast duck with rice, Diet Coke”, while rude sounding, is much preferable. It may seem a little condescending but learning to speak broken English is a rather useful skill.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#165

Post by detaro »

ksec wrote: post #131
Agingcoder wrote: post #85

There is another aspect beyond raw vocabulary and grammar, and that's unspoken cultural assumptions :not abbreviations and slang, but real misunderstandings caused by different understandings of what seems to be a set of perfectly obvious sentences to both sides . A branch of my company went through a merger with another branch in a different country, and with a different language. Needless to say, it was difficult,…

>but real misunderstandings caused by different understandings of what seems to be a set of perfectly obvious sentences to both sides. Yes. Especially true when it happens between an American and a Brit. Also true between Germans and Brits, when the Germans are so good with their English, the precision with their wordings which tends to trigger some Brits.

Do you have an example/anecdote for the last part? Not sure I know what you mean.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#166

Post by hardwaregeek »

Iv wrote: post #159
markdown wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A: "Should I launch the nukes?" B: "Fuck no" A: *Initiates launch*

Laugh, but talking with Japanese, something that often happens is: A: "Shouldn't I launch the nukes?" B: "No." Can be understood as "yes, do it" because they are used to an opposite logic when answering negation. "Yes" means "I agree with the negation" and no the opposite. And they seem to have a hard time accepting that the logic is different in English.

There’s the classic “you can’t add too much water to the reactor” where “can’t” can mean you are physically incapable of adding too much water, and therefore should add a lot, or “can’t” can mean you must not add to much water.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#167

Post by lightgreen »

> didn't reveal the tricky word because it is highly industry-specific and possibly identifiable

I suspect this article (or at this part of the article) is bs.

Non-native speakers know highly industry-specific words very well, because it is the words they are using every day. Moreover, industry-specific words in business correspondence rarely have double meaning unlike everyday words.

> Chia Suan Chong, a UK-based communications skills and intercultural trainer

likely made up this story to get some publicity, but could not find a good simple example.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#168

Post by henearkr »

Iv wrote: post #161
Agingcoder wrote: post #85

There is another aspect beyond raw vocabulary and grammar, and that's unspoken cultural assumptions :not abbreviations and slang, but real misunderstandings caused by different understandings of what seems to be a set of perfectly obvious sentences to both sides . A branch of my company went through a merger with another branch in a different country, and with a different language. Needless to say, it was difficult,…

As a French living in Japan one of the things I quickly learned is that if I complain about something while showing even a hint of anger or annoyingness, my interlocutor will take it personally, even if he/she is not involved about the thing as well.

Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration?

Japanese people very easily feel compelled to defend their group, because if not they are often treated as "anti-japanese" by the most right-wing (which are the most vocal) of their relations/neighbors. This in turn leads to a lot of self-censorship.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#169

Post by hnjst »

lebuffon wrote: post #36

Two thoughts come to mind. 1. At one time in human history, not long ago, it was mandatory to have some facility in at least a 2nd language to claim you had a higher education. Partial mastery of a 2nd language would help native English speakers "get" what it's like for the non-native people and might help them adjust there speaking style. IMHO we have allowed "higher" education in English speaking countries to devol…

"Lingua Franca" refers to an earlier period in history when French was the common language used across Europe, among the nobility in particular. You can read it as "common language for international communication" to understand why it's used to qualify the "globish" variant of English nowadays.

Admittedly, using a latin expression literally describing French to mean English may be slightly confusing...

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#170

Post by hnjst »

jessaustin wrote: post #114
b0b0b0b wrote: post #16

Was the word “inflammable”?

I'm guessing "penultimate". Non-native speakers look up the dictionary definition, while the average American knows it means "really awesome".

While the french equivalent "pénultième" is rarely heard and considered as pedantic, "antépénultième" is actually much more frequently used to avoid the ugly "avant-avant-dernier" (very really awesome).
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