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Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

bbc.com

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Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#141

Post by robocat »

secondcoming wrote: post #80

Misused English words and expressions in EU publications [0] > Over the years, the European institutions have developed a vocabulary that differs from that of any recognised form of English. It includes words that do not exist or are relatively unknown to native English speakers outside the EU institutions and often even to standard spellcheckers/grammar checkers (‘planification’, ‘to precise’ or ‘telematics’ for exa…

Interesting - similar to many institutions of course.

Bovine, Ovine, Caprine, Porcine and Asinine animals

Comitology, Decommitted, Negative evolution

Unfortunately the list seems to concentrate on British English usage - for example “Hierarchical superior” makes perfect sense to me.

There are some very surprising examples of EU English where I would read the exact opposite meaning (however New Zealand English is my mother tongue, so perhaps that is my own bias).

And after brexit, what use does the EU have for English anyway?

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#142

Post by markdown »

Agingcoder wrote: post #85

There is another aspect beyond raw vocabulary and grammar, and that's unspoken cultural assumptions :not abbreviations and slang, but real misunderstandings caused by different understandings of what seems to be a set of perfectly obvious sentences to both sides . A branch of my company went through a merger with another branch in a different country, and with a different language. Needless to say, it was difficult,…

A: "Should I launch the nukes?"

B: "Fuck no"

A: *Initiates launch*

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#143

Post by CGamesPlay »

tomcooks wrote: post #122
riffraff wrote: post #115

Many years ago I had the chance to work in a research institute in Ireland. A common line for newcomers who worried about their ability to speak was that we had 25 or 35 different nationalities, and the Irish were the only ones having problems communicating in English. It is pretty obvious if you think about it, and not specific to any language: native speakers of X have to make an effort to speak "international basi…

The Anglosphere covers more than half of the world, being used to deal with other cultures and adapting to that should be taken for granted.

You're assuming that all people who speak English are fungible. Someone who's spent their whole life talking to Americans in Ohio is absolutely not going to have experience "toning down" their English to the same degree that someone who grew up speaking with Americans and Latinos in San Diego. So sure, the Anglosphere covers half the globe, but the only relevant part of it is the part that actually interfaces with other languages.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#144

Post by bsder »

teekert wrote: post #44
david38 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been to France and tried speaking French after a few years of study? Have you ever had to deal with someone there who speaks far better English than you, but refuses to because of snobbery? This article is trash

Have you ever spoken to a French person while imitating their accent and found that they understand you much better?

Have you ever spoken to a Glaswegian while imitating their accent and found that they understand you better?

I was really worried that people would think I was making fun of them, but, in reality, they just thought that my horrible American accent had gotten a little bit better. :)

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#145

Post by kotrunga »

ajford wrote: post #59

This article blames English specifically for what is ultimately a cultural difference. This goes for a native speaker in any language. I speak passable Spanish, and have encountered the same "cultural dissonance" when dealing with a native speaker in a room full of non-native speakers. When you grow up embedded in a language and culture, you don't realize when you slip into colloquialisms and culture references that…

this ^

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#146

Post by ncpa-cpl »

shkkmo wrote: post #120

I think there is a fundemental misattribution where the author talks about monolingual speakers. Speaking to non-native speakers in a language is a seperate skill that can be learned without proficiency in a second language. It takes skill and care to keep your sentence structure simple and independent of semantic nuance or idiom. People for whom English is a lingua franca have almost exclusively used English to spea…

At work we need to speak on a day to day basis with Spanish speakers from other countries. Spanish is our native language.

We share with every new hire a list of words that can be misunderstood and that they shouldnt use, and also list of words of the other countries so they can understand them better.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#147

Post by lebuffon »

xdennis wrote: post #83
lebuffon wrote: post #36

Two thoughts come to mind. 1. At one time in human history, not long ago, it was mandatory to have some facility in at least a 2nd language to claim you had a higher education. Partial mastery of a 2nd language would help native English speakers "get" what it's like for the non-native people and might help them adjust there speaking style. IMHO we have allowed "higher" education in English speaking countries to devol…

> "Lingua Franca" is probably one of those terms that one should not use internationally, unless you are in Italy, Spain, France, Portugal or Romania I'm not sure what you mean. Are you perhaps confusing lingua franca with romance language?

I was implying that due to its Latin origin (?) it might be less familiar to non-native speakers.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#148

Post by bsder »

Agingcoder wrote: post #85

There is another aspect beyond raw vocabulary and grammar, and that's unspoken cultural assumptions :not abbreviations and slang, but real misunderstandings caused by different understandings of what seems to be a set of perfectly obvious sentences to both sides . A branch of my company went through a merger with another branch in a different country, and with a different language. Needless to say, it was difficult,…

> I ended up solving the problem by organizing a very nice lunch, where everyone realized the 'others' were actually nice and friendly human beings, and that email was not always the best way to communicate.

Email is terribly crappy. You completely lose language nuance. I always try to give people the biggest benefit of the doubt even when I'm certain that the person on the other side of the email is a raging asshole.

I think its just "Seeing a face activates friendliness brain circuits." I really do have no other explanation how you can completely defuse situations just by having people sit down and talk at lunch, a bar, etc.

However, my problem is that I have an extremely good command of the English language. This is very useful when I talk as I can make full use of humor, simile, metaphor, florid prose, idioms, etc. to keep things interesting for people.

And I completely lose English as a second language people because they can't keep up with my language gymnastics at speed. If I have non-native listeners and I have to communicate, I have to deliver the talk once to myself, watch it, suppress all of my language weirdness, and deliver it again. It's really tough.

Of course, people who speak English as a second language love listening to me one-on-one as they learn all manner of crazy ways to say things.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#149

Post by antonvs »

jogjayr wrote: post #134
jessaustin wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing "penultimate". Non-native speakers look up the dictionary definition, while the average American knows it means "really awesome".

"Penultimate" is American slang for "really awesome"?

Nope. Parent was attempting a weird joke, which failed badly.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#150

Post by antonvs »

kingsuper20 wrote: post #26

This probably should be rewritten as "Native language speakers are the world's worst communicators".

...which could be generalized as, non-native speakers of a language have more difficulty understanding native speakers. It's a scientific breakthrough, I tell you!
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