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Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

bbc.com

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Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#221

Post by skhr0680 »

henearkr wrote: post #216
Iv wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it was about other persons. I remember one specific instance where a friend explained to me what a neighbor asked of us for a property we manage together and I complain that these demands are really annoying especially after we had spent some money and time satisfying other demands that I personally did not find grounded. My friend then asked "why are you so angry at me?". "I am not! I am complaining!"

Wow I had the same "backfire" experience saying that the neighbor/neighborhood ("kinjo") was forcing stupid behavior on them and that they were not compelled to obey them nor to fear them. To me it seemed like the kinjo is too hot an issue to criticize. OR maybe, obeying to the kinjo is virtue signaling, and criticizing their decision to obey is denying their virtue. It did not occcur to me that it could be a more de…

> To me it seemed like the kinjo is too hot an issue to criticize. OR maybe, obeying to the kinjo is virtue signaling, and criticizing their decision to obey is denying their virtue.

I think the third option is that are just as frustrated about the rules as you, but what are they going to do about them? From their perspective, it’s easier to suck it up and be free to get on with their lives as opposed to rocking the boat and attracting the ire of the neighborhood Karen, who inevitably has unlimited rage, time, and energy.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#222

Post by Kreotiko »

angry_octet wrote: post #174
Kreotiko wrote: post #126

It doesn’t help that native English speakers are less inclined to learn another language and don’t get to understand the experience of being at the other end

Less inclined, or with less incentive, and fewer opportunities? Whereas English is omnipresent. Finding good teachers is always tough in a monolingual environment. I'm reminded of visiting China in the 2000s, many Chinese languages, rarely foreign languages, but a hunger to learn English from native speakers.

I believe it to be a cultural thing. Sure, you don’t necessarily have the incentive to learn a language for work but the education system does not promote it either. I know a lot mainland European who speak languages other than English just out of interest for other cultures with no real use in their daily job.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#223

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

megablast wrote: post #179
poglet wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ended up with the prawn burger (KFC Japan) because I made the mistake of mentioning that I dont want the prawn burger.

You started to list the things you didn’t want?? That’s odd.

Not at all, it's similar to a proof by refutation. Assuming there was a finite number of dishes that could be ordered, it should be easy to prove it a sound and complete ordering rule.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#224

Post by Kreotiko »

jgwil2 wrote: post #177
Kreotiko wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other languages it wouldn’t happen at the same scale due to people also speaking a second language and realise these dynamics. Do you know many native English speakers speaking a second language fluently? I have been living in the U.K. for over 10 years and can count them on a hand.

Well, the thing about English being a global lingua franca is that English speakers aren't constantly exposed to another language the way many other people are exposed to English. It isn't fair, but there we are.

That’s the problem. People think they can get away without knowing languages just because most resources have been translated. They don’t know that they are missing out on a huge portion of information they will never fully understand. The education system is lacking on promoting culture rather than eligibility to work in U.K. and this makes things much worse

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#225

Post by js2 »

II2II wrote: post #82
js2 wrote: post #74

I think some commenters are taking issue with this article for singling out English. Yes, the larger issue is native vs non-native speakers in any language. But this article is specifically addressed to native English speakers because English often serves as the common language in a room of mixed-language speakers. I'm a native English speaker. I don't find the article offensive, and I appreciate it pointing out how…

> I'm a native English speaker. I don't find the article offensive, and I appreciate it pointing out how I can be a more effective communicator. If you want people to communicate more effectively, then you state how to communicate more effectively. It is best to avoid criticism since the recipient is liable to take it poorly. Trying to be provocative will only result in the intent of the message being ignored.

FWIW, I don't take this article poorly because I don't see it as being critical of some immutable characteristic of either me or of English. It's simply pointing out a blind spot that native speakers are unlikely to realize when speaking to non-native speakers.

As to the headline, like not judging a book by its cover, I also don't judge an article by its crappy clickbait provocative headline.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#226

Post by js2 »

ajford wrote: post #59

This article blames English specifically for what is ultimately a cultural difference. This goes for a native speaker in any language. I speak passable Spanish, and have encountered the same "cultural dissonance" when dealing with a native speaker in a room full of non-native speakers. When you grow up embedded in a language and culture, you don't realize when you slip into colloquialisms and culture references that…

Yes, of course, but it's an article for English language speakers published by the BBC, so it's written in terms of English being the native language. Perhaps there's an analogous article written in some Spanish publication for Spanish speakers.

In any case, English is the most popular second-language in 55 countries, so it's not a bad guess to write this article in terms of English.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#227

Post by ajford »

js2 wrote: post #226
ajford wrote: post #59

This article blames English specifically for what is ultimately a cultural difference. This goes for a native speaker in any language. I speak passable Spanish, and have encountered the same "cultural dissonance" when dealing with a native speaker in a room full of non-native speakers. When you grow up embedded in a language and culture, you don't realize when you slip into colloquialisms and culture references that…

Yes, of course, but it's an article for English language speakers published by the BBC, so it's written in terms of English being the native language. Perhaps there's an analogous article written in some Spanish publication for Spanish speakers. In any case, English is the most popular second-language in 55 countries, so it's not a bad guess to write this article in terms of English.

So the HN title has been changed, but the original article specifically calls out Native English speakers as "the world's worst communicators".

The author could have couched the entire article from the point of view that a native speaker is difficult for non-native speakers to understand. I was simply pointing out that the article points an accusing finger at a particular group, when the issue at hand isn't a particular language, but the situation in question.

This is definitely something that communicators and collaborators need to be aware of, but the article, at least to me, demonizes a particular group even though the issue isn't inherent to that group.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#228

Post by js2 »

ajford wrote: post #227
js2 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course, but it's an article for English language speakers published by the BBC, so it's written in terms of English being the native language. Perhaps there's an analogous article written in some Spanish publication for Spanish speakers. In any case, English is the most popular second-language in 55 countries, so it's not a bad guess to write this article in terms of English.

So the HN title has been changed, but the original article specifically calls out Native English speakers as "the world's worst communicators". The author could have couched the entire article from the point of view that a native speaker is difficult for non-native speakers to understand. I was simply pointing out that the article points an accusing finger at a particular group, when the issue at hand isn't a particu…

Yes, the headline is awful:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27234386

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#229

Post by errnesto »

casmclas wrote: post #205
stephen_g wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but that’s not so much a problem with the language but more an issue of sentence construction. A big part of good communication in any language is anticipating that sort of ambiguity and adding context or rephrasing to remove it if required. ‘Can’t’ is really too passive to use if it really is ‘must not’ for anything serious, so while the sentence could work either way in spoken communication (because you can co…

"Can't" isn't even the slightest bit passive. But a person who is telling others how to communicate well will always use technical terms with the wrong meaning. In this case a negative imperative is what you should be using. Moreover, since it's a life-or-death matter, we need to carefully explain ourselves. "Do not add too much water to the reactor. If you add too much water, the reactor could explode. The reactor s…

Especially in german where “You must not“ reads very similar to “Du musst nicht“

Which means “You don’t have to”

“Yo must” could be correctly translated to “Du musst” though...

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#230

Post by medstrom »

vixen99 wrote: post #87
phkahler wrote: post #10

This explains a lot. I only speak English, but I've been working on communicating more clearly. I used to provide a lot of backstory/context when talking because I wanted people to know how to interpret what I was about to say. It turns out the real problem was me not speaking plainly and simply. When you use the right words people are more likely to take what you say at face value (that's probably a phrase I shouldn…

Insofar as efficiency equates with precision (kind of, I would have thought), here's some data that doesn't take your view. English comes out top out of seven popular languages but only just. https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2015/06/whats_the_most... I wonder which you think is a more precise language than English? As a monoglot, I can't comment.

I know Swedish, so my comment is that English frequently feels imprecise. If you want to make sure a sentence will be interpreted unambiguously, you have to pile on a lot of extra verbiage, which people don't normally do because precision is not that important in most cases. By contrast, Swedish normally leaves less room for multiple interpretations, which makes brevity easier to achieve.
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