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Lima: Linux-on-Mac

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Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#171

Post by smoldesu »

kergonath wrote: post #113
smoldesu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's start with the places I take issue with: > OS updates are non-events Big Sur and Catalina have been the most disastrous updates in MacOS history. I'm not really sure why you'd choose now to highlight their notorious stability and ease of use. Ask any sysadmin who had a fleet of Macbooks during this update cycle: it was a nightmare and a half. Failing that, ask them about Catalina. They might run and hide…

> Ask any sysadmin who had a fleet of Macbooks during this update cycle: it was a nightmare and a half. That’s not saying much, everything is always terrible and it was all better under Lion/Snow Leopard/Tiger/OS 8. The 4 computers I had to update did it just fine. > Brew and Macports both suck. If you use Linux on a daily basis, then you're well familiar with what a good package manager looks like: apt and Pacman ar…

> Right, so you have an ideological problem and that’s why you sound like that. Well, if I can recommend anything, it would be to keep using Thinkpads, they are good devices and Linux is great as well. That way you can completely ignore whatever happens on the Apple side and be happy.

Welcome back to square one. The only reason I even had any input on this in the first place is because I frequent Hacker News, and I just wanna pitch in my two cents where applicable.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#172

Post by moshmosh »

vvanpo wrote: post #59
ravenstine wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's why I moved away from Linux to macOS: - I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. The file explorers are also a joke and frequently changing. - I've never booted to a black screen when upgrading macOS. - 99% of the work I do never needs anything that has to be virtualized under macOS. - Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as…

There are many ways macOS improves over Linux desktops, but file explorers is not one of the arguments I would have made. Finder is practically unusable.

I don't particularly like it, but I've not seen it crash or glitch out with the frequency that Linux file managers have ever since I've used them (a couple decades across a dozen or so desktop and laptop systems; mostly Nautilus, Dolphin [wasn't Konqueror also the file manager for a while, or am I mis-remembering?] and IIRC Thunar)

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#173

Post by kelnos »

bovermyer wrote: post #19
Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

I use a Macbook Pro for development. I spend a fair amount of time in Linux servers. Running a Linux VM for local development of things that require Linux doesn't bother me. I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. When I'm using awk and grep, it's in Linux, not macOS. Not judging you or your opinion here - just explaining that I'm as bewildered by your experience as you are by mine.

> I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain.

It's great that works for you, but that only works for people whose brains are (or have become) attuned to Apple's (often... interesting) ways of doing things.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#174

Post by [deleted] »

smoldesu wrote: post #168
leadingthenet wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, you might only miss one or two apps. And I might only miss one or two apps. But it's probably different apps for both of us, and I think that probably generally holds true for the vast majority of people. The Linux Desktop is 95% of the way there, no question about it. But that 5% is different for each individual, and ultimately, it matters.

I mean, we can't kid ourselves here: none of these operating systems are 100% of the way there. By your logic, MacOS isn't 100% of the way there because it can't play the same games as Windows, and Windows isn't 100% of the way there without running Final Cut and Logic. The issue with that metric is that it will grossly play against your favor if we're being diminutive about the amount of software that's on each resp…

[deleted]

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#175

Post by DCKing »

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

> As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done?

This kind of thing easily goes both ways, and shows you're considering things only from a narrow angle. Which is understandable by the way - but please do consider other views :)

There are lots of "basic things" that Linux doesn't get done, depending on your definition of basic thing. It's entirely reasonable for developers to consider things like "accurate and versatile trackpad movement" [1], "renders things consistently on HiDPI screens", "natively runs mainstream image editing or word processing apps", "can stream Disney+ above 720p", "has font rendering at least on par with Windows Vista", "has a Little Snitch type application that's both usable and actively maintained" or "there's stronger accountability in the development of apps I use because it's not largely developed by volunteers or people who assume I should solve my own problems".

All of these "basic" things are a fight on Linux, most are a fight you can't even win, and this isn't even a comprehensive list. A lot of these have a good explanation as to why they're a fight, but you can't blame people for wanting to avoid that fight.

I too run desktop Linux on machines because it offers a lot of flexibility while tinkering with things and a greater sense of control. But failing to see why Linux is not the objective pinnacle of desktop computing - even objective pinnacle of desktop computing for developers - is just really for a lack of trying. Desktop Linux is really awesome but damn it does it still have long ways to go.

[1]: Up until recently, and maybe up until this day, the best trackpad experience on Linux is running desktop Linux in a VM on a macOS host.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#176

Post by regularfry »

irateswami wrote: post #157
__jem wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A package manager with up to date packages (granted there are Linuxbrew and things like Snap now for Linux.) On what planet is is homebrew better than Linux package managers? I agree with many of the other items in these lists, but this makes literally no sense to me. Homebrew is probably one of the worst things about doing dev on a mac.

Homebrew is more transparent and approachable, I can easily customize what is being installed, it's versioning, and control it's dependencies better than apt. Apt, more often than not, acts as a gatekeeper for the latest version of whatever software packages I'm trying to install. I end up just having to adding various libraries and repos to my sources list to get the version I need, or go to an outside dependency ma…

More accurate to say that apt is for the sysadmin, perhaps.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#177

Post by smoldesu »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #100
kergonath wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux is more customisable, but macOS is much, much better out of the box. I use both every day for about the same amount of time, and macOS requires much less fighting to get the basics right (i.e. networking and Bluetooth just works, no need to tinker with X or Wayland, printing is much less problematic, OS updates are non-events, etc). I am happy to use Linux at work, but I would never put it on my main computer a…

It absolutely varies by workload and individual but I can be productive under macOS in a fraction of the time it takes with any Linux distro. Its defaults are much better aligned with what I expect of a desktop OS, and customizing Linux to behave similarly is both a fight and not possible to the fullest extent without breaking out the source code for existing projects and making modifications. It's great that source-…

> I could see myself delving into writing a macOS-clone DE (which as a sidenote, GNOME and Pantheon doesn't go far enough with)

How do they not go far enough with it? The only thing that I can think of them not emulating is the menu bar in the top left, but the Gnome team is already flying pretty close to the sun with their recreation. Even still, there are ways to implement a global menu bar into Gnome with a little effort if it means that much to you. Otherwise, I really can't fathom what you're missing out on, besides some walls for your garden.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#178

Post by HaoZeke »

pkulak wrote: post #125
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done?" Depends on the developer. How many developers use awk and grep? Most web developers probably have touched them once and never used them again, and prefer using MacOS compared to fighting Windows to do their web dev. Making a blanket statement that doing any development requires "fighting MacOS" is silly.

A couple years ago I realized that if I had a good terminal environment, all I really needed was a terminal, browser, and IDE. So, by using Linux, I lose, I dunno, iPhoto and iCal and whatever, but I gain real Linux with a real Linux package manager and immediate access to the latest version of every tool I can imagine. Plus fun stuff like BTRFS, a tiling window manager, and a feeling that I'm actually in control of…

+1000 for the tiling window manager comment! I can't stand the weird nightmare which is macos desktop management with spaces.

iCal is a big draw though, Linux calendars are terrible and since thunderbird choked and left xul Mailmate is attractive too.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#179

Post by kelnos »

gbear605 wrote: post #110
dreamer7 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you call tethering your Android phone via USB to your laptop a basic thing? Recently, I was having trouble with my phone's WiFi hotspot and tried to tether via USB. The only solution was Horndis, a 3rd party kernel extension. I quickly became knowledgeable about kexts and csrutil, rebuilt a kernel extension for M1 architecture and gave up after several hours of frustration. It's ridiculous that Apple can get aw…

That’s not an Apple problem, that’s an Android problem. The ball is in Google’s court there.

How so? It works fine on Linux, and I hear it works fine on Windows too (I think you might have to install a driver there though). Apple seems to have the odd OS out here, why is it no their fault?

My assumption here is that, as usual, Apple doesn't care about anyone who hasn't fully bought into their ecosystem. If it's not an iDevice, they don't care if it works fully with their desktop OS.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#180

Post by smoldesu »

dmitriid wrote: post #122
smoldesu wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS. Linux is well known for it's customization, and you can really pad out your desktop to be an ergonomic and customized place designed for you. MacOS, on the other hand, is practically the definition of fighting your OS: you aren't allowed to have a proper package manager, Apple has to…

>>I don't have to fight my OS. > I think that's a mantra that applies a little better to Linux than it does MacOS. Linux is well known for it's customization > pad out your desktop to be You've just described fighting your OS. I mean, sure, if you like customizing things and "padding your desktop", knock yourself out. The last thing I want to do on my machine is spending any time doing that. > I don't really see how…

> You've just described fighting your OS.

It's only fighting if it wasn't designed for it in the first place, which isn't true. Linux (and the software designed for it) will always be modular. Once you have your desktop however you like it, you can backup your dotfiles and call it a days work. Bare git repos do the job almost perfectly.

> You listed package manager, coreutils, and VPN. That.... That is a minuscule part of a programmer's workflow.

If coreutils and a package manager are "miniscule parts" of a programmers workflow, I'd sure like to see someone program on a Mac without them.

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