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Lima: Linux-on-Mac

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Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#11

Post by jeremyjh »

user3939382 wrote: post #4

I always thought “Windows Subsystem for Linux” was phrased backwards and should have been “Linux Subsystem for Windows”. It threw me for a loop when I read that phrasing on the readme.

Well, "Windows Subsystem" is a term that has existed for like 25 years; the kernel design for NT included this idea of subsystems that could provide compatibility layers or other functionality at a lower level of abstraction than a user-space library. They thought they needed this when they splintered from the partnership with IBM in the OS/2 project. In the early days of Windows NT, Windows Subsystems for OS/2 and for POSIX existed as as well as the win32 subsystem. I think the POSIX subsystem eventually became Subsystem for Unix Applications (SUA) which did have some users at some point, though I was never one of them. I think they did borrow at least ideas if not code from that project for the Linux subsystem.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#12

Post by bayindirh »

jeremyjh wrote: post #11
user3939382 wrote: post #4

I always thought “Windows Subsystem for Linux” was phrased backwards and should have been “Linux Subsystem for Windows”. It threw me for a loop when I read that phrasing on the readme.

Well, "Windows Subsystem" is a term that has existed for like 25 years; the kernel design for NT included this idea of subsystems that could provide compatibility layers or other functionality at a lower level of abstraction than a user-space library. They thought they needed this when they splintered from the partnership with IBM in the OS/2 project. In the early days of Windows NT, Windows Subsystems for OS/2 and f…

> I think the POSIX subsystem eventually became Subsystem for Unix Applications (SUA) which did have some users at some point...

It had a bundle which had a NFS server or client, I don't remember. The only thing I remember is NFS functionality was a sure way to get BSODs. Every. Time.

Towards end of its lifetime, SUA was re-purposed as a toolset to migrate UNIX environments to Windows, not to enable interoperability. The toolkit discontinued a year or two later IIRC.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#13

Post by Naac »

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS"

This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer multiple third party tools just to get a modern version of awk and grep.

I Just recently I learned you can't add more swap ( creating a swap file and adding it ). That seems incredible to me.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#14

Post by gjsman-1000 »

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

"why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done?"

Depends on the developer. How many developers use awk and grep? Most web developers probably have touched them once and never used them again, and prefer using MacOS compared to fighting Windows to do their web dev. Making a blanket statement that doing any development requires "fighting MacOS" is silly.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#15

Post by Naac »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #14
Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

"why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done?" Depends on the developer. How many developers use awk and grep? Most web developers probably have touched them once and never used them again, and prefer using MacOS compared to fighting Windows to do their web dev. Making a blanket statement that doing any development requires "fighting MacOS" is silly.

That was just an example though. My point was that you're constantly fighting an operating system that's clearly not designed for you ( the developer ).

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#16

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

Long time Linux user and also long time macos user. I've never had any problems getting "basic things done" on either platform. Except for Linux, which has inferior applications for most things.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#17

Post by gjsman-1000 »

Naac wrote: post #15
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done?" Depends on the developer. How many developers use awk and grep? Most web developers probably have touched them once and never used them again, and prefer using MacOS compared to fighting Windows to do their web dev. Making a blanket statement that doing any development requires "fighting MacOS" is silly.

That was just an example though. My point was that you're constantly fighting an operating system that's clearly not designed for you ( the developer ).

Apple has always made it clear that they care about the experience of their users, not the developers. Because the customers are there, the developers follow. That's just how it works unfortunately.

Also, clearly not designed for you? You can install Brew to have a package manager, Magnet to add Window snapping for a dollar, you can make it fit your use case for not that much effort or money. You don't have to use vanilla MacOS.

Furthermore, consider the alternatives. You've got Windows (bleh for a thousand reasons and clearly also not designed for developers), or you've got Linux (which doesn't have many of the apps you need, worse battery life, doesn't have Handoff to your iPhone). MacOS is the best all-rounder option for many people.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#18

Post by the_duke »

seiferteric wrote: post #3

Just vm’s? No syscall emulation?

Microsoft abandoned syscall emulation with WSL2.

The differences between Linux and XNU might be less problematic, since it's a Unix derivative.

But as Wine shows, it takes a lot of work and you still get a suboptimal, buggy experience.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#19

Post by bovermyer »

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

I use a Macbook Pro for development. I spend a fair amount of time in Linux servers. Running a Linux VM for local development of things that require Linux doesn't bother me.

I don't have to fight my OS. It works with my brain. When I'm using awk and grep, it's in Linux, not macOS.

Not judging you or your opinion here - just explaining that I'm as bewildered by your experience as you are by mine.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#20

Post by gjsman-1000 »

Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

"I Just recently I learned you can't add more swap ( creating a swap file and adding it ). That seems incredible to me."

At what point are you just approaching MacOS with the wrong mindset? MacOS isn't something you should or need to manage swap for or should really think about. It's the same reason you don't think about managing swap on Windows or your iPhone or your Android or your Smart TV.

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