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Lima: Linux-on-Mac

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Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#161

Post by smoldesu »

zepto wrote: post #140
smoldesu wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor design is leveraging a security model on an arbitrary and centralized root of trust, but maybe it's just a matter of perspective.

Yes, that is a poor design - no sarcasm - I mean it. However it’s better for most people than the alternative. Fixing this should be job #1 for the Linux community.

For the most part, Linux has "fixed" that. Really, the hardest part of using Linux is the onboarding process, which is being addressed with companies like System76 and Lenovo offering to ship laptops with Linux preinstalled.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#162

Post by laumars »

ravenstine wrote: post #44
Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

Here's why I moved away from Linux to macOS: - I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. The file explorers are also a joke and frequently changing. - I've never booted to a black screen when upgrading macOS. - 99% of the work I do never needs anything that has to be virtualized under macOS. - Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as…

> I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. The file explorers are also a joke and frequently changing.

Dolphin on KDE hasn’t changed in 10 years and is far more functional than Finder. Frankly I think Finder is an appalling file manager so I’m surprised to hear anyone advocate it.

> MacBooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as well as my Mac.

5 years ago I would have agreed with you but MBPs these days are really built more like expensive consumer devices rather than workstations that expect to see heavy usage.

Ultimately I think the real reason people use Macs is just personal preference and there isn’t any tangible, provable benefits of one over the other. Despite our engineering minds thinking every decision can be distilled down to fact and reason.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#163

Post by kelnos »

ravenstine wrote: post #44
Naac wrote: post #13

It's just a "better integrated" virtual machine: "Lima launches Linux virtual machines on macOS" This might be a controversial opinion, but I find developers flocking to macOS really bewildering. As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done? This Lima thing, docker running in a virtual machine, Apple being actively hostile with the default coreutils requiring you to layer mu…

Here's why I moved away from Linux to macOS: - I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability. The file explorers are also a joke and frequently changing. - I've never booted to a black screen when upgrading macOS. - 99% of the work I do never needs anything that has to be virtualized under macOS. - Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as…

> I'm sorry, but no Linux DE I've ever used beats macOS in terms of stability.

Been running Xfce since 2004 with no stability issues whatsoever.

> Macbooks are solid laptops. Every other laptop I've owned hasn't stood the test of time as well as my Mac.

Oof, I guess you never got a Mac during 2016-2020 or so. They've been gradually declining in build quality. I owned Mac laptops continually from 2005 until 2019, and they've been going downhill pretty much the entire way, especially since 2012 or so.

> More [actually good] software supports macOS. It's just a fact.

That's pretty much the definition of an opinion, not a fact.

> Finding compatible hardware for Linux can be frustrating and not as complete as is claimed.

It really isn't. The problem is that everyone already has a laptop when they decide they want to switch, and then get frustrated when their existing laptop doesn't work well with Linux. These days there are quite a few laptops that work perfectly or near-perfectly with Linux, and they're not hard to find.

> All the customization doesn't offset the trouble that desktop Linux can bring.

That's a fair opinion, but I've found my experience to be the opposite. Every time I go back to macOS, I get frustrated with the inflexibility of it all. I get that it's a pain to feel like you have to customize everything to get something usable for you, but macOS goes too far in the opposite direction for me: Apple just does not give me enough knobs to turn to make me feel comfortable in their environment.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#164

Post by leadingthenet »

satysin wrote: post #134
leadingthenet wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can definitely do that in Finder by adding the Terminal.app as a Service. Here’s a guide I found: https://www.howtogeek.com/210147/how-to-open-terminal-in-the...

They are referring to the shell being integrated into Finder similar to the integrated terminal in Visual Studio Code or IntelliJ IDEs not launching a separate Terminal.app window.

Oh, I see. Apologies for misunderstanding, then.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#165

Post by swiley »

smoldesu wrote: post #81
Toutouxc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, what's wrong with Finder? I use ForkLift for the heavy lifting (lol), but it works just fine for "navigate to file, open/move/delete file, sort by size/date, tag files, find files".

Finder still can't handle SFTP connections. In 2021. I feel like I'm going insane, or I've missed some sort of critical update, but no, it's just sitting there.

This.

It's incredibly useful basic functionality that both Finder and explorer inexplicably lack. This alone makes Linux desktops far more friendly even for novice users who want to do something beyond sharing gifs on web forums.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#166

Post by officeplant »

moshmosh wrote: post #146
zepto wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if they got a boot loop I have literally never seen a boot loop on a Mac. How would that even come about?

This poster gets it. I use macOS because there's about 1/10 the likelihood that I'll have to burn half a day fixing its fuck-ups as there is with Windows and Linux. And I did plenty of that for years before ever seriously using a Mac. Nowadays when I check in on the Linux desktop to see how it's doing now, I notice how easy it is to get into the old habits of "oh this is pretty good, just a little tweak and I can get…

For me personally Windows/Linux falls under the same umbrella: I'm going to largely use it as it comes from my favorite distro (or microsoft) with slight tweaks that rarely break anything. These tweaks are usually accessible via settings panels (or regedit)

For MacOS: Instead of tweaking things internally I have to reach out to third party application developers to fix things the OS lacks. Some examples: bettersnaptool to give me modern window snapping like Windows/Linux, or the Android File Transfer so I can actually access my phone.

Either way I'm having to make changes to get cozy, MacOS just means I'm going to be handing money to a few thirdparty devs by the end of it in order to get it to behave like I'm used to OS's behaving. Maybe that's my fault from growing up mostly in a Windows/Linux environment besides the few years I spent in OS8/9 in college.

I'm comfortable in all the major operating systems. It just cost more for me to get comfortable in MacOS. Not that it's a bad thing, dev's need money too.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#167

Post by saagarjha »

smoldesu wrote: post #68
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much of this is incorrect. You can prefer the ThinkPad, that's fine! But you've got several incorrect statements. "Unless you install the 65 gigabyte monster" - It's 9GB. With caches and Simulator, maybe another 9GB. 1/3 of 65 GB. "sorry, Metal is still a joke" - It's different, but developers who have to write shaders in Metal actually have pretty good reviews of it. They admit it isn't as convenient as having na…

Sorry, I was referring to an older setup I had where I kept multiple copies of Xcode for project testing. Either way, 20 gigabytes is still way too large for a program running on a laptop that starts at 256 gigs of storage (220 after the worlds largest operating system gets comfortably situated). As for Metal, I think my statement still stands. I can't think of a single developer who would prefer to write shaders in…

Perhaps the command line tools are all you need? They are much smaller than Xcode.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#168

Post by smoldesu »

leadingthenet wrote: post #155
OJFord wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sort of simultaneously see that that's true, but also don't personally feel I'm missing anything except Fusion360. But maybe that's just the extra motivation I need to use something else like FreeCAD or OpenSCAD with more git-able files anyway. (I also use Arch btw.)

Sure, you might only miss one or two apps. And I might only miss one or two apps. But it's probably different apps for both of us, and I think that probably generally holds true for the vast majority of people. The Linux Desktop is 95% of the way there, no question about it. But that 5% is different for each individual, and ultimately, it matters.

I mean, we can't kid ourselves here: none of these operating systems are 100% of the way there. By your logic, MacOS isn't 100% of the way there because it can't play the same games as Windows, and Windows isn't 100% of the way there without running Final Cut and Logic. The issue with that metric is that it will grossly play against your favor if we're being diminutive about the amount of software that's on each respective platforms.

It really depends what you do on your computer. I think a better way to look at it is that each of these OSes will do 90% of the things you want them to, and you just need to pick and choose which 10% matters the least to you.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#169

Post by saagarjha »

duskwuff wrote: post #121
seiferteric wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I was hoping, I know there is irreconcilable differences between NT and linux kernels, but maybe there is hope on XNU.

I'd be surprised if there weren't already something out there to do this. Darling [1] already translates in the opposite direction with little difficulty; I'm not aware of any fundamental reason that you couldn't emulate Linux syscalls on XNU. [1]: https://github.com/darlinghq/darling

We do this with iSH, it’s mostly a question of putting in effort to get them right.

Re: Lima: Linux-on-Mac

#170

Post by kelnos »

monocasa wrote: post #120
domano wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As a developer, why do you want to fight your operating system to get basic things done" After 10 years of linux it took me 1 month with a macbook to decide that i just dont have the time to keep my linux running the way i want to, play the hardware lottery and fear every major update (or every update after a vacation with arch).

I mean, I just don't understand the fascination with rolling update models for the core os. I've got other things to worry about than playing with config files, so I just install a new LTS distro every couple years or so and amortize the pain to less than the yearly macos updates.

I guess that's just personal preference; I prefer to keep my systems up-to-date at least on a monthly basis. Most of the time the updates go without a hitch, and maybe once a year something very minor breaks. If I were to only update once a year (aside from security updates), I would expect many more things to break. And that's what I see from the complaints of my co-workers when they update macOS on their laptops once a year: a lot of pain in the ass issues that take a while to resolve. And this is after our IT dept has taken 3-6 months to test things on the new OS version and allow people to upgrade.

For reference, I run Debian testing until it becomes stable, and then 4 months or so later I switch to the new testing release name. I get an up-to-date system (Debian stable has a reputation for being old and outdated almost at release day), but also skip the part where Debian testing has a lot of churn and possible breakage. The newstable->newtesting upgrade, even though it's a larger one, rarely causes problems, and happens once every two years.

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