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Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

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Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#161

Post by StavrosK »

whatshisface wrote: post #92
donw wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally wound a relationship making getting a concession you want moot. Precisely. If you want to keep somebody on your team, you don't play this kind of game. These sort of zero-sum take-all-the-marbles negotiations are reserved for when you don't care at all about any future relationsh…

It's a dangerous subject, but it only takes a slight change in wording to turn a take-all-the-marbles conflict into a positive example of you offering them an opportunity. See, "Give me remote or I walk." Versus, "I found this great role at this other company, and the work they do satisfies me on a deep personal level. However, it's not remote, and if you let me stay remote, my present position would be way better. W…

Except the second one is only useful if you actually do have another offer, so the two are not equivalent.

What you should actually do is politely request that you be allowed to work remotely, as you "realized that you are not looking forward to spending a significant chunk of your day commuting, and have realized that remote work is much better for your mental health". This is still a polite request, but fairly clear that you'll probably start looking for another job if they deny.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#162

Post by Negitivefrags »

ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

> "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?"

If you did this to me I would want you gone. Making disingenuous arguments shows a total lack of morality.

Why would I want to hire someone who is willing to lie to get what they want?

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#163

Post by chris11 »

ineptech wrote: post #147
gnicholas wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) it introduces private healthcare decisions, a legally fraught topic they do not want to deal with. Is it legal to fire someone for refusing to return to the office despite health concerns? Probably, but no one knows for sure and your employer does not want to be the test case. (If they ask, "what health concerns?" remind them that's private. Don't invent a fictitious medically-fragile aunt.) I used to be a lawye…

> It seems like you've thought about this quite a bit — what would the reasoning be? I have not, no, this is just guesswork, but the reasoning is how much of an unknown quantity the covid risk still is. If Bob's doctor says it's not safe for Bob to return to the office because Bob's wife had a pulmonary embolism two years ago, who's to say the doctor is wrong? If Bob's psychologist says he has PTSD and the only way h…

> But again, I'm talking out my butt on this. My point was not that medical necessity is a convincing case

I'm not a lawyer, or a manager, but I'm not quite convinced. I think OP should have that conversation with their doctor first. Claiming to need WFH to be safe is sounds related to some anti-Covid vaccination arguments. If the company cares about safety they are probably going to take reopening safely seriously, if they don't take Covid seriously they won't like accepting the initial request.

Though the eeoc does say having any WFH program makes it more likely it could be a reasonable accommodation. And I think my employer is already thinking about accommodations when reopening. Getting WFH might be a good possibility if their doctor agrees it's needed. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/work-hometelework-reasona...

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#165

Post by ineptech »

chris11 wrote: post #163
ineptech wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like you've thought about this quite a bit — what would the reasoning be? I have not, no, this is just guesswork, but the reasoning is how much of an unknown quantity the covid risk still is. If Bob's doctor says it's not safe for Bob to return to the office because Bob's wife had a pulmonary embolism two years ago, who's to say the doctor is wrong? If Bob's psychologist says he has PTSD and the only way h…

> But again, I'm talking out my butt on this. My point was not that medical necessity is a convincing case I'm not a lawyer, or a manager, but I'm not quite convinced. I think OP should have that conversation with their doctor first. Claiming to need WFH to be safe is sounds related to some anti-Covid vaccination arguments. If the company cares about safety they are probably going to take reopening safely seriously,…

I clarified this down-thread but let me say it again here: I don't mean to suggest anyone make anything up, I meant to suggest that being afraid of getting covid is a reasonable reason to want to wfh.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#166

Post by StavrosK »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #162
ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

> "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" If you did this to me I would want you gone. Making disingenuous arguments shows a total lack of morality. Why would I want to hire someone who is willing to lie to get what they want?

How would you know they're lying?

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#167

Post by spoonjim »

pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

You're much better off at a company that actively offers remote work instead of browbeating your current employer into conceding it to you. In the latter case you will always be seen as a second class citizen and they will never take your career development seriously.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#168

Post by BeetleB »

snow_mac wrote: post #145
bigwavedave wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can if they fire you though... As far as I know, that's if you're fired without cause. Who do you think the state contacts to find out why you were let go? Be careful going down that route.

> State law determines whether a fired employee can collect unemployment. Generally speaking, an employee who is fired for serious misconduct is ineligible for benefits, either entirely or for a certain period of time (often called a "disqualification period"). But the definition of misconduct varies from state to state. In many states, an employee's misconduct has to be pretty bad to render the employee ineligible f…

My guess is that in most states, "He refused to show up for work" would be considered "for cause". Don't really know, though.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#169

Post by wombatmobile »

perl4ever wrote: post #82
pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

>Being on the spectrum I don't think that is why you made a suboptimal choice; I think that's why you incorrectly think you made a suboptimal choice. They might regret losing you, but that doesn't mean that good things would have happened if you tried to apply leverage before. The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally woun…

> The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally wound a relationship making getting a concession you want moot.

Yes, so, present the initiative not just or even primarily in terms of your own preferences, but in terms that highlight the benefits to your employer.

How would working remotely make your contribution more valuable and more flexible to your team and your org?

Sell that first. There's no risk. Even if it doesn't work first time, if you present it as part of an open discussion about their interests, needs, and pre-conceptions you'll learn something from their response.

If you feel that being on the spectrum limits your ability to see things from their point of view, depersonalise it by getting some help from a friend to divine your employer's perspective, and then take that view and treat it as an intellectual exercise for you to optimise a scenario. You're good at that.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#170

Post by spoonjim »

todd3834 wrote: post #160
jimbob45 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you get what you pay for in India.

You get what you pay for everywhere. You can definitely find high quality talent in India but it isn’t going to come at the “outsource to India” price people who have never done it think it will. Great talent is expensive regardless of where it is because the global market determines it more than the locale. That being said, I expect some discount to come with the challenge of differing time zones. Also depending on…

You don't "get what you pay for" in that you can pay a lot and still get shit results but you can't pay shit and get good results.
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