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Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

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Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#91

Post by mLuby »

ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

Also consider asking for a small pay increase when you start the remote work conversation.

Justification is the money the company will save on office space and equipment and utilities and snacks when you're working from home.

And then graciously "settle" for maintaining your current wage, having forestalled any talk of lower/location-based pay for remote workers.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#92

Post by whatshisface »

donw wrote: post #90
perl4ever wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Being on the spectrum I don't think that is why you made a suboptimal choice; I think that's why you incorrectly think you made a suboptimal choice. They might regret losing you, but that doesn't mean that good things would have happened if you tried to apply leverage before. The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally woun…

> The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally wound a relationship making getting a concession you want moot. Precisely. If you want to keep somebody on your team, you don't play this kind of game. These sort of zero-sum take-all-the-marbles negotiations are reserved for when you don't care at all about any future relationsh…

It's a dangerous subject, but it only takes a slight change in wording to turn a take-all-the-marbles conflict into a positive example of you offering them an opportunity. See,

"Give me remote or I walk."

Versus,

"I found this great role at this other company, and the work they do satisfies me on a deep personal level. However, it's not remote, and if you let me stay remote, my present position would be way better. What do you feel would be right?"

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#93

Post by caseybettle »

I said I am moving to another city do you want me to try remote working or not? Yes. Within 3 months my productivity rose 5x, I received a large raise. Who knew not working in the equivalent of a hog barn (yes I have debugged code in a literal hog barn, one very thin door from the action) would raise your efficiency?

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#94

Post by Tempest1981 »

CardenB wrote: post #55
perlgeek wrote: post #24

Key to a negotiation is understanding what the other party wants (and what you want, of course). WHY do they want you to work on premise? Wanting your presence is just a means to an end. There could be many reasons, like: * They think it's easier to control how much somebody works if it's on premise * it might be easier to manage * it might be inertia * they think it's more efficient * somebody is trying to exert con…

I think this is a significant part of the problem that has prompted the question. It would be really helpful to have some insight into what is driving the move back to the office from people on HN.

HR proudly proclaims, "we work best when we're all together"

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#95

Post by danShumway »

rizpanjwani wrote: post #25

Playing devil's advocate: as a business/employer why would I continue to pay you your current first-world salary rather than find someone top-notch for 1/3 your salary in India, or any other English speaking country with a lower cost of living?

If you think you can, then go for it.

I feel like if the only reason you're hiring in the US is because you think there's a 3x productivity boost meeting in person... I mean, to me it's pretty obvious that in-person development does not bring that substantial of a gain. So maybe there are other questions you should be asking if you're in that position.

Abandoning the position of an employee entirely, just speaking as a bystander, I feel like an employer asking that question off the cuff has probably not thought very deeply about their company makeup and hiring processes if they think that sharing an office is the only reason not to outsource development. And I don't mean that to be dismissive, if you're right and you could be outsourcing development, but you're paying 3x more to develop something in-house... maybe you should think more about how your company is structured. Why are you developing your software in-house in the first place?

I've heard manager-types make this argument before, and it's just very alien to me that someone would think the single biggest difference between hiring locally and hiring outside of the US is whether or not the worker sits at a specific desk. Having worked in both a local and an multi-national office, I consider them to be two very different styles of organization, each with their own pros and cons. If you think adapting to an international development team just boils down to using Slack more, I suspect you're in for a shock.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#96

Post by brianwawok »

heavyset_go wrote: post #68
pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

> boring commutes They're not just boring, they're dangerous and expensive, especially if you're commuting by car. Commutes are responsible for a 9.91% drop in hourly wages[1]. Using the media commute time, a commuter might spend close to 10 days per year just commuting, and in some cases it's closer to two full weeks[1]: > In the area with the longest average commute (New York-Newark-Jersey City), commuters are spen…

I mean you literally picked the longest commute average in the country. My current commute is 8 minutes, hard to even get a podcast fired up.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#97

Post by closeparen »

heavyset_go wrote: post #78
closeparen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably because they feel it’s not worth the downsides of working remotely. Put another way: if they won’t do a remote workforce for a 66% discount, why would they go for it at a smaller discount?

> Presumably because they feel it’s not worth the downsides of working remotely. I've worked remotely for several employers and clients, and they all seem to hire domestically. A few had stories about their experiences with hiring foreign remote workers, and they came to to the conclusions that doing so isn't always worth the labor discounts versus just hiring domestically. I don't think remote work is the issue here…

H1B is a higher wage and much more bureaucratic hassle than hiring the same workers in their home countries, suggesting again that the employer is strongly averse to remote.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#98

Post by jeromegv »

brianwawok wrote: post #96
heavyset_go wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> boring commutes They're not just boring, they're dangerous and expensive, especially if you're commuting by car. Commutes are responsible for a 9.91% drop in hourly wages[1]. Using the media commute time, a commuter might spend close to 10 days per year just commuting, and in some cases it's closer to two full weeks[1]: > In the area with the longest average commute (New York-Newark-Jersey City), commuters are spen…

I mean you literally picked the longest commute average in the country. My current commute is 8 minutes, hard to even get a podcast fired up.

And you literally picked the shortest one which isn't much better, the average commute is 53min per day in the US.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#99

Post by bigyikes »

whatshisface wrote: post #92
donw wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally wound a relationship making getting a concession you want moot. Precisely. If you want to keep somebody on your team, you don't play this kind of game. These sort of zero-sum take-all-the-marbles negotiations are reserved for when you don't care at all about any future relationsh…

It's a dangerous subject, but it only takes a slight change in wording to turn a take-all-the-marbles conflict into a positive example of you offering them an opportunity. See, "Give me remote or I walk." Versus, "I found this great role at this other company, and the work they do satisfies me on a deep personal level. However, it's not remote, and if you let me stay remote, my present position would be way better. W…

Exactly. Being assertive and firmly negotiating doesn’t mean you have to be a jerk. Just the opposite, actually: if you’re being a jerk, you’re probably not not negotiating well.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#100

Post by donw »

bigyikes wrote: post #99
whatshisface wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a dangerous subject, but it only takes a slight change in wording to turn a take-all-the-marbles conflict into a positive example of you offering them an opportunity. See, "Give me remote or I walk." Versus, "I found this great role at this other company, and the work they do satisfies me on a deep personal level. However, it's not remote, and if you let me stay remote, my present position would be way better. W…

Exactly. Being assertive and firmly negotiating doesn’t mean you have to be a jerk. Just the opposite, actually: if you’re being a jerk, you’re probably not not negotiating well.

Bingo. The above example is great as well -- "I'd like to stay here, but being remote matters more to me. How can we solve this amicably?"
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