Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop • Hacker News Board

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#321

Post by milofeynman » Sun, May 02, 2021, 11:10 PM UTC

chestervonwinch wrote: post #145

lima wrote: post #51

Slack has a fun dark pattern - they purposefully remove functionality from their web app to make you install their native app. The web app has a workspace switcher sidebar, but it only appears on ChromeOS, where you can't install the native client. https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/144258/slacks-we...

Can you explain why this is a dark pattern? How does slack benefit from you using the native app vs. the web app?

As an engineering manager in an unrelated field... this could also be a way to not have to support a feature on X platform because I don't have the resources to make it work on every possible mobile browser. Or the mobile browsers don't support X feature and I don't want to (or can't) spend the resources to make it work there, QA it there etc. It's not something likely to be able to curb with regulations.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#322

Post by ryandrake » Sun, May 02, 2021, 11:10 PM UTC

crmd wrote: post #54

mimsee wrote: post #11

Ecommerce sites showing a "27 people are watching this right now" alongside the product but from source code it turns out to be a Math.random()

It’s fun to imagine the implications of dramatically raising the standard for commercial speech, such that statements which intend to mislead are prohibited.

I’d argue that a simple law “companies may not lie to people,” with wide latitude for judges to define lying, would instantly and massively upend business for the better.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#323

Post by motohagiography » Sun, May 02, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

"renewing," card billing cycles. LinkedIn advertising "renewed" the amount of my fixed ad spend multiple times, turning a ~$200 spend into almost $2,000 WITHOUT an email notification.

I did not discover it until I got my credit card bill. They use their internal support interface web tool to manage the support commitments to customers, so they memoryholed their reps commitment to refund my money, which they did not.

Any other so-called subscription services need at LEAST as much consent from you to bill you as they do to add and remove you from mailing lists.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#324

Post by sircastor » Sun, May 02, 2021, 11:13 PM UTC

yawnxyz wrote: post #282

I hate it when Linkedin or Lunchclub does a "connect your friends!" and you accidentally click a button and it literally launches spam invites for your entire address book. Worst part is that NO ONE has ever called them out for such a dark pattern, but the pattern forces ppl to send unsolicited emails to their contacts AND pretends it's meant to be sent by the person. Incredibly devious

I accidentally signed into gmail via LinkedIn a while back and it caused me grief for months. I had to write a number of apologetic emails, and I’m still annoyed at LinkedIn -it’s been 13 years.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#325

Post by ryandrake » Sun, May 02, 2021, 11:14 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #274

reaperducer wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

users continued to put things in their cart "so they wouldn't forget them". It was a very frustrating result; this was the exact behavior we were hoping that Lists would eliminate. My wife does this, not just to Etsy, but on all kinds of e-commerce sites. So I apologize on her behalf. I suspect that it's related that she's also one of those people who will never bookmark a web page. Instead, she keeps a hundred tabs…

Don't apologize. It's a pretty common practice. Some e-commerce vendors may not like it, because it disturbs their statistics or marketing shenanigans, but the error here is on their side - they assume that putting something in a cart is an intent to purchase. That assumption is wrong. It's obvious why this happens. The shopping cart, as an e-commerce pattern, is a bookmarking tool . You put stuff there, it stays the…

I do this too. A good question for OP is: why is this a problem? Just let users do what makes sense to them. Why do you have to get them to stop?

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#326

Post by busymom0 » Sun, May 02, 2021, 11:16 PM UTC

easterncalculus wrote: post #207

One example for sure is the endless CAPTCHAs you receive on virtually any large website when you attempt to connect from TOR. Each time you solve one it takes forever just to complain about how you spending several minutes selecting every 'light' suddenly isn't good enough to prove your humanity. You're not "checking if I'm human" 60 times in a row, you're blocking me for not wanting to be tracked on your website.

Would be so much better for them to simply tell you "we do not allow using our site via TOR" which is totally understandable instead of such nonsense.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#327

Post by tracer4201 » Sun, May 02, 2021, 11:20 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #125

Although not software, gym memberships are notorious for using all manner of slimy tactics to keep you paying. Online reps can't do anything, your local gym somehow never has a "manager" around who can do anything. You can "freeze" your account but then they can just arbitrarily unfreeze and start charging you again. Very close to having my CC company issue a charge-back to our local gym for fraud. Very shady and hop…

I’m going through this with LA Fitness. They closed their location in downtown Bellevue, WA. The next closest location to me is many miles away, and I’m not going to take an Uber there $10 each way. I’ve been in person and was told to send them a form via mail. I did that 2 months ago. They charged me for March and they just slapped a charge end of April. I’ve called them, was told to come in person again, and told to send another form in the mail. I have no recourse, and I honestly pray these predatory, dishonest criminals have their entire company shut down.

It should be illegal for any gym to force you to come in their physical location or too require mailing in forms to cancel.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#328

Post by ryandrake » Sun, May 02, 2021, 11:21 PM UTC

yawnxyz wrote: post #282

I hate it when Linkedin or Lunchclub does a "connect your friends!" and you accidentally click a button and it literally launches spam invites for your entire address book. Worst part is that NO ONE has ever called them out for such a dark pattern, but the pattern forces ppl to send unsolicited emails to their contacts AND pretends it's meant to be sent by the person. Incredibly devious

This one is kind of on the os platform though. I can’t think of a legit use case where an app should get access to every single contact in my address book. This is incredibly personal information, and should be guarded better, perhaps by asking consent for each access and for each contact. The app should have to explain in detail why it wants access to a particular contact.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#329

Post by DavidSJ » Sun, May 02, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

mimsee wrote: post #11

Ecommerce sites showing a "27 people are watching this right now" alongside the product but from source code it turns out to be a Math.random()

I was asked to implement something like this at a web startup years ago (since folded): I was supposed to juice the number of active users in the last month by a large random number in the range of 50,000-100,000 or so. I refused saying I didn't want to lie to our customers. My boss said, "it's not for them, it's for the board". Which, needless to say, was even more reason to refuse.

They assigned it to another engineer. The new "feature" was deployed.

He forgot to round the random number. So let's just say the home page reported the number of active users with very fine precision.

Unfortunately it was quickly fixed.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#330

Post by ExtraE » Sun, May 02, 2021, 11:41 PM UTC

thiht wrote: post #297

chiefofgxbxl wrote: post #8

Windows 10 does not respect the "default browser" setting when opening web-based content through apps. For example, clicking on "Help" links or search results from the start menu always opens in Edge. This seems far worse than their IE-bundling issue back in the day... at least users have a few web browsers to choose from, but what good is that when user preference is overridden?

Doesn't Apple do the same with Safari? On macOS I think Safari opens up sometimes even though my default browser is Firefox. Maybe when clicking links in Apple Mails? Not sure. It's funny how Apple gets away when doing the same thing or worse than Windows, yet Windows is always the one getting criticism. Like how Apple always try to enable Siri after an update. Or how managing when an update should be done is incredi…

Apple very recently added preferences for default browser/maps apps to iOS but as far as I can tell it’s totally broken. Resets all the time and only about 2/3rds of links open in the correct app even when it’s successfully set (especially for maps). Can’t speak to macOS. (The resetting may be fixed finally now, I’m not sure. I gave up for maps because it wasn’t worth it, which I guess was the goal).

Windows forces you to use bing/edge when you accidentally search from the launch programs menu, but I never intentionally search from there so it’s a minor inconvenience (for me). Never had it fail to respect that setting elsewhere. It also does a good job letting you set default apps for all types of files (and in fact letting apps change that setting themselves with a little user interaction) unlike iOS which only lets you change it for a few types of apps (and then through the worst designed settings menu I’ve ever seen). Can’t leave iOS behind though because I need my iMessaging.