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Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

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Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#201

Post by josefx »

lmkg wrote: post #128
galangalalgol wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that is pretty blatent. When EU stomps on them I'm sure someone else will pop up. Any chance the companies employing trustarc could be liable?

The way GDPR works, I think the companies using TrustArc are more likely to be held liable than TrustArc itself. Unless TrustArc makes the unforced error of getting itself classified as a Data Controller.

> Unless TrustArc makes the unforced error of getting itself classified as a Data Controller.

Knowing how some scams and tax evasion schemes work I wouldn't be surprised if they could just set up a separate company that ends up with all the liability without any of the assets and just have that declare bankruptcy the moment the first fines hit. Rinse/Repeat as often as necessary.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#202

Post by hhjinks »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #44
dmix wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 10yrs ago NBA did this to me. They made it impossible to cancel a $99/m sub. Their instructions were login and go to the cancel button but the cancel button was broken and said call this number. But no one ever picked up the number. I will never buy a NBA branded thing after that obvious bullshit scam.

New York Times does this also. As far as I can tell it's literally impossible to cancel a subscription. I had to close the card attached to my account.

You can change your payment option to paypal, remove your card from NYT, then remove your card from paypal. They'll complain to you for a couple weeks, but they'll cancel it for you after a while after that.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#203

Post by Spivak »

jrockway wrote: post #177
amluto wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be in favor of a different approach: a merchant should not, under any circumstances, be able to remove money from an account, charge a credit card, or otherwise take money from someone without the explicit authorization of the customer. In this context, explicit means one of two things: 1. The customer intentionally authorized that specific transaction. A specific transaction means one transaction. If a merch…

I think the explicit authorization is the contract you sign that allows for the subscription. It's already pretty risky to loan people money, and your system makes it even riskier. (Consider the business model of cloud providers; you agree to pay for whatever you use, and then they charge you for last month's usage. If you could just not pay, then the business wouldn't really be viable. You'd have to figure out what…

This is literally what “sending you a bill” is. They don’t need to have an upfront agreement to charge your card. They need an upfront agreement that you will pay for services used at the end of the month. This is standard invoicing that these companies already do just without automatically charging cards.

When you pay your medical bills it’s still an explicit payment.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#204

Post by sunshineforever »

ModernMech wrote: post #111

I don't know if this counts as a dark pattern but it really ticked me off when this happened: when YouTube on iPad changed to require a paid subscription to play content while the screen is turned off. What kind of fresh hell is that? I have to pay to use a hardware feature? What's the next move, requiring me to purchase a subscription to adjust the volume or the screen brightness? Actually this reminds me of another…

Thank you for posting this because that's the dark pattern that I was trying to remember myself. This one has aggravated me beyond anything else on the entire internet. I hope for the return of newpipe soon.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#205

Post by reaperducer »

diveanon wrote: post #144
kingsuper20 wrote: post #133

The internet was nice while it lasted. I'm thinking that that guy on youtube who builds cabins from scratch in Canada with the charming Golden Retriever ('My Self Reliance') probably has the right idea. Maybe the right answer is a terminal that does email, banking, and Amazon.

How can you bemoan what the internet has become and support Amazon in the comment?

How can you bemoan what the internet has become and support Amazon in the comment?

Amazon is a lifeline for people who live in remote places, which is what I think he means by cabins in Canada.

Amazon is the new Sears Catalog, enabling people who live pretty much anywhere in North America to buy things quickly and safely that are not available to them any other way.

Pre-pandemic I spent a lot of time with people who live in places where a "supermarket run" happens every other month, when the person with the largest truck drives three hours to the nearest Costco to fill ten grocery lists for all the neighbors. Amazon handles the days in between.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#206

Post by coddle-hark »

r_singh wrote: post #197
bogwog wrote: post #152

A common one is fake consent popups for system notifications. Websites need to ask for consent before sending system notifications via the Notifications API. If a user declines, that website is blocked from asking again (for obvious reasons) But many websites cheat this by showing a fake consent popup designed to mimic what the browser would show. If a user clicks "Decline" on the fake popup, the website won't show t…

I was not aware about this but stackoverflow shows me their consent box (and on every stack exchange site) everyday

This was driving me crazy too, turns out that my adblocker was breaking the consent box. Clicking “Accept” didn’t do anything.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#207

Post by easterncalculus »

One example for sure is the endless CAPTCHAs you receive on virtually any large website when you attempt to connect from TOR. Each time you solve one it takes forever just to complain about how you spending several minutes selecting every 'light' suddenly isn't good enough to prove your humanity. You're not "checking if I'm human" 60 times in a row, you're blocking me for not wanting to be tracked on your website.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#208

Post by lucb1e »

bilalq wrote: post #189
ryandrake wrote: post #125

Although not software, gym memberships are notorious for using all manner of slimy tactics to keep you paying. Online reps can't do anything, your local gym somehow never has a "manager" around who can do anything. You can "freeze" your account but then they can just arbitrarily unfreeze and start charging you again. Very close to having my CC company issue a charge-back to our local gym for fraud. Very shady and hop…

A gym I had a membership with wouldn't let me cancel in person and insisted I do so via registered mail. So incredibly slimy.

That's one option that always works, and people don't seem to get that. While it's scummy that you have to do it that way (that's obviously bollocks), this would also be the way to tell them to stop charging you if their customer support won't pick up, their email server rejects yours as spam, the web form is broken, that sort of shit (people elsewhere in the thread mention a million-and-one instances of this, not realizing that there is another way). Send them a letter and be done with it.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#209

Post by llacb47 »

coddle-hark wrote: post #206
r_singh wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not aware about this but stackoverflow shows me their consent box (and on every stack exchange site) everyday

This was driving me crazy too, turns out that my adblocker was breaking the consent box. Clicking “Accept” didn’t do anything.

Which adblocker?

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#210

Post by dqv »

jackson1442 wrote: post #179
dqv wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So instead of filtering it out or graying out the "get" button, I need to click on the link in the app store and find the compatibility section (the last part of the page) to find out if it's compatible? That's a dark pattern.

It's been a looooong time since I've had this issue, but I distinctly remember the "get" being grayed out (for example, gps-dependent apps on a non gps-enabled iPad). Has this regressed?

Yes. It's regressed. This video [0] is an example of what happens, EXCEPT on mine the pause was considerably longer before the "unable to purchase" pop up came up.

[0]: https://youtu.be/lMMrU732w6Q?t=82 (and if you look at the comments, you can see that I'm not the only consumer frustrated by this issue)

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