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It's your device, you should be able to repair it

bbc.com

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Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#501

Post by tomjen3 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #489
tomjen3 wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now when we say that our economy grows exponentially, it means that the amount of matter traveling through this pipeline is growing exponentially too! If there are people out there who buy phones by weight it is to buy phones that are thin and light, and therefore contains fewer materials. I remember the phones of the early aughts. They were bigger and could only do phone things (and snake), which meant that you nee…

> Today you have all of that in a phone. But you replace them every two years. And the market for them is still growing. And there's now a resurgence of a market for single-purpose appliances that happens on top of the smartphone market - not replacing it. (It's also possible more matter goes into making a modern smartphone than a bunch of devices it replaced, because of the demand for more exotic and more pure mater…

I was merely making the observation that the growth of the value of something is not necessary a linear function of the amount of materials used. I am not convinced, as an example, that the first iPhone caused drastically more waste to produce (or drastically less) than the last one. Yet the last one is clearly much better.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#502

Post by zepto »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #496
zepto wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the argument that there is any planned obsolescence going on. Lack of support is not the same thing. However this: > Once a device no longer receives updates or official support, it should be opened for hobbyists to experiment with. I agree with and I’d support legislation to that effect.

Apple completely cutting support for first-gen iPads is certainly planned/deliberate obsolescence. The hardware is fine, well-built and solid, probably still has 50% battery life left at this point. It's not the fastest device, but plenty fast for text and 2D graphics, plus some mild 3D. But Apple has cut off support, very few apps can run on the old version of iOS it is locked to, and there is no real way of install…

It’s complete bullshit to say it was planned or deliberate. If you have some internal documents showing the plan, that would be different. It’s just a device from a time when technology was evolving rapidly.

If this problem hadn’t been solved, there would be more of an issue, but my 6 year old iPad Pro runs everything and is still fully supported.

Having said that I actually do agree that unsupported hardware in general should be opened to new OS installs at the end of official support.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#503

Post by zepto »

darren_ wrote: post #475
zepto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that planned obsolescence is not in fact everyone’s business model. Apple’s penetration into the US market is not because the iPhone matches Android in terms of sales, it’s because iPhones last longer and get handed down or resold. Apple literally continues to sell years old devices. That isn’t planned obsolescence. A really simple step in the right direction would be mandated labeling showing how many…

> A really simple step in the right direction would be mandated labeling showing how many years of software updates the device will get and statistical expected lifetime. This isn't that simple because it depends on _which_ software. This gets glossed over a lot in these discussions. An iPhone gets ~5 years of iOS updates. Importantly, these updates are the only place where the only permitted web viewer on the platfo…

That’s a fair point, but easily addressed. The base OS and Browser are arguably the two platforms on which software runs, and for which security updates are important. There could be 2 numbers.

I realize there are other runtimes, but for a general indication for cross comparison this would do.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#504

Post by zepto »

fsflover wrote: post #480
zepto wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know the answer to that - it prevent large classes of social engineering attack and is part of the overall security model.

Even when the device is no longer supported?

I fully support allowing the device itself to have alternative OS installations after the end of official support.

The reason 1st gen iPads don’t have this is fairly obvious though - the unlocking feature is itself a likely vector for attacks e.g. by law enforcement unlocking tools, etc.

I’m not sure what it would take to enable it to be done securely without destroying the overall security model but it’s clearly not trivial, and would take some investment that certainly wasn’t possible at the time the 1st gen device was released.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#505

Post by zepto »

fsflover wrote: post #481
zepto wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Artificially inflating cost of parts can trivially be used to enforce planned obsolescence. It could , but nobody has presented any evidence that Apple is doing this, and their business strategy is openly stated to involve increasing the lifetime of their devices, so that they can deliver services to more users, so this is just innuendo.

> nobody has presented any evidence that Apple is doing this Simply compare the cost of official Apple service and corrsponding third-party service.

That is not evidence of anything. There are many reasons that third party service is cheaper that have nothing to do with some conspiracy by Apple.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#506

Post by TeMPOraL »

tomjen3 wrote: post #501
TeMPOraL wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today you have all of that in a phone. But you replace them every two years. And the market for them is still growing. And there's now a resurgence of a market for single-purpose appliances that happens on top of the smartphone market - not replacing it. (It's also possible more matter goes into making a modern smartphone than a bunch of devices it replaced, because of the demand for more exotic and more pure mater…

I was merely making the observation that the growth of the value of something is not necessary a linear function of the amount of materials used. I am not convinced, as an example, that the first iPhone caused drastically more waste to produce (or drastically less) than the last one. Yet the last one is clearly much better.

I'm not saying it's a linear function either. I think it varies. But I also don't think the value added per unit of resources used is growing exponentially. So the problem still remains, because anything short of exponential function isn't going to impact the overall trend long-term.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#507

Post by KozmoNau7 »

zepto wrote: post #502
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple completely cutting support for first-gen iPads is certainly planned/deliberate obsolescence. The hardware is fine, well-built and solid, probably still has 50% battery life left at this point. It's not the fastest device, but plenty fast for text and 2D graphics, plus some mild 3D. But Apple has cut off support, very few apps can run on the old version of iOS it is locked to, and there is no real way of install…

It’s complete bullshit to say it was planned or deliberate. If you have some internal documents showing the plan, that would be different. It’s just a device from a time when technology was evolving rapidly. If this problem hadn’t been solved, there would be more of an issue, but my 6 year old iPad Pro runs everything and is still fully supported. Having said that I actually do agree that unsupported hardware in gene…

How is Apple's decision to no longer support the original iPad and also refuse to open the platform not deliberate?

It is still a perfectly viable piece of hardware for many uses, no matter how much technology has improved.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#508

Post by zepto »

fsflover wrote: post #490
zepto wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know for a fact that Apple was artificially lowering their battery capacity. This is completely false.

Apple artificially decreased the performance (not lowered the battery), which is why they were fined.

Firstly, thanks for confirming that that the parent poster was posting a false statement.

Secondly, as you must be aware, the reason Apple decreased the performance was to extend the useful lifetime of the battery.

The fine was because they didn’t explain this properly in advance, not because they did it.

They still in fact do alter the device performance to accommodate aging batteries and make them last longer.

This is a really silly issue to raise if the argument is about Apple shortening lifetimes of devices or batteries, since it makes the device usable for longer.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#509

Post by zepto »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #507
zepto wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s complete bullshit to say it was planned or deliberate. If you have some internal documents showing the plan, that would be different. It’s just a device from a time when technology was evolving rapidly. If this problem hadn’t been solved, there would be more of an issue, but my 6 year old iPad Pro runs everything and is still fully supported. Having said that I actually do agree that unsupported hardware in gene…

How is Apple's decision to no longer support the original iPad and also refuse to open the platform not deliberate? It is still a perfectly viable piece of hardware for many uses, no matter how much technology has improved.

The reason they haven’t opened the platform is to protect the security model.

That is deliberate, but has nothing to do with planned obsolescence.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#510

Post by scientismer »

spixy wrote: post #488
scientismer wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know how much it costs to provide an extended warranty? If it actually costs money, that kind of rule would make devices more expensive for everybody.

I am OK with everybody paying +3% more than few unlucky ones paying another 100% because they received faulty pieces. In EU there is mandatory 2 year warranty for everything (with exceptions like food etc) and maybe extending to at least 3 years could be fine compromise.

2 years warranty is enough to sort out the faulty pieces. Is there no warranty in the US? In any case, obviously that kind of insurance costs money. Why not let individuals pay for it if they want it?
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