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It's your device, you should be able to repair it

bbc.com

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Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#271

Post by asddubs »

CountSessine wrote: post #195
alexvoda wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

This was in a very different era, when manufacturing was difficult and expensive. Having the schematic didn't necessarily get you anywhere. That's no longer the case - now the design is expensive but the manufacturing is cheap.

a lot of consumer electronics are a bunch of strung together reference implementations. the schematic isn't really the secret sauce, especially since with a soldering iron, a multimeter (and maybe an lcr meter) and time, you could completely recreate it without difficulty. not practical for a repair shop's level of income/device, but if you wanted to steal a design, you could easily do this

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#272

Post by FearlessNebula »

GordonS wrote: post #248
34679 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 year old laptops are repairable, but fewer and fewer new ones are not. I've been in the market recently and it's extremely frustrating trying to find a laptop that doesn't have the RAM soldered in place. Sure, it can technically be desoldered, but that's not how it used to be.

I'm hunting for a new laptop just now, and just about everything has at least one DIMM soldered, with many having both soldered. Driving me nuts! Is there a convincing technical reason why everybody is doing this nowadays?

Force you to choose more RAM from the factory where they charge high margins.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#273

Post by lotsofpulp »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #265
jolux wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the GP was talking about discrete circuitry vs integrated circuits, not so much supporting peripherals.

But their parent wasn't (in fact, they mentioned x86 and AMD, which are integrated circuits). Look at a random PC (or, until recently, a random laptop): it's made from a lot of individual components that can be swapped out or upgraded independently. Storage, RAM, CPU, GPU, cooling, motherboard, WiFi chip, Bluetooth chip, speakers, microphone, screen, all the peripherals - they're all designed to work together as a ca…

>These options are not being made available in the first place.

Could it be because it's not financially feasible? If you present the idea of a repairable alternative to an iPad, are any investors going to take you up on it?

I think a big aspect of this whole debate is that manufacturing efficiencies have gone up so much, that it's simply not economically worth it to sacrifice the resiliency and cost effectiveness of making it completely integrated. The cost to launch a new product and manufacturing line is also very high, so that you have to be really sure a sufficient number of consumers will want it.

On top of that, as a seller, you get to keep costs low when you have to spend less on dealing with people tinkering with it and then sending it in for warranty.

Unfortunately, I don't think a "tinkerable" option can compete on price to value ratio such that sufficient people would buy it to make it a feasible investment.

>it's about making it possible for local markets for software and hardware maintenance and repair to exist.

Efficiency is frequently a trade off for a word that I can't think of, but maybe can be described as "security" or "local security". It's similar to not needing a butcher, produce market, shoe store once a Walmart Supercenter rolls into town. I struggle to come up with a legal requirement that would restrict efficiency such that it does not give others (globally) a competitive advantage, but still retains "local security".

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#275

Post by colejohnson66 »

andrepd wrote: post #148
colejohnson66 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they don’t become bricks. They still work just fine. In fact, on some more recent unsupported devices, you can still redownload apps (but only up to the latest version supporting your device). Did the Apple II become a brick when Apple stopped supporting them? The IBM PC? Why is an older iDevice a “brick”, but not BlackBerrys or Nokias?

Precisely, the iPhone does not work like an Apple ][ or an IBM PC. After "support" is ended you cannot install software on your device. How insane is it, I'll repeat: you cannot install software on “your own” device .

I personally don’t care about installing my own stuff on my iPhone. I bought it knowing full well I couldn’t do it. But you’re right: when support ends, it is pretty crazy how the only way to install unapproved apps is through jailbreaks. If a manufacturer isn’t going to support a mass produced device anymore, they shouldn’t be able to just fold their arms and say, “we have a newer model!”

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#276

Post by scientismer »

antattack wrote: post #50

Given opposition to 'right to repair' from corporations, some of it on valid grounds IMO, I would be fine with the following compromise: If company does not want to provide resources needed for consumer to repair a device- it ought to provide extended warranty to the consumer for free or a small fee.

How do you know how much it costs to provide an extended warranty? If it actually costs money, that kind of rule would make devices more expensive for everybody.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#277

Post by shard »

ska wrote: post #67
fsflover wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That isn’t planned obsolescence. Yes, it is. Even though Apple devices last longer, after the support is ended, I cannot do anything with them. I cannot update, install anything. They effectively become bricks. If this is not planned obsolescence, then what is?

It's only planned obsolescence if the lifetime of a product is artificially shortened by design choices. It's not clear this applies here.

I'm going a little bit on a tangent here, and this may not apply so much to recent Apple phones, but Apple phones had planned obsolescence in terms of the design of their physical appearance such that you can tell almost instantly which generation it is. This allows broadcasting of status, that this person can afford the latest while that person can only afford to use a 2-year-old phone, thus artificially driving the upgrade cycle.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#278

Post by fsh »

ChrisLomont wrote: post #214
fsh wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? A rubber gasket and a few screws work just as well without compromising repairability. Wristwatches have been constructed like this for centuries, while being a lot smaller and lighter than any smartphone. Maybe it would slightly increase the BOM and assembly cost, but considering that it fits in the budget of a 30€ Casio,…

> Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? Glue helps with heat dissipation, physical shocks, vibration knocking plugs loose, provides electrical insulation, chemical resistance, and makes the components less able to vibrate over time and knock things loose, makes sensor positioning more stable, and even makes things easier to assemble since less individual faste…

None of this makes any sense. In modern smartphones, the PCBs (i.e. the parts that get hot and contain the sensors and other components) are usually screwed into the frame without any glue. Only the battery, display, and back covers are glued in. This makes repairs of the most commonly damaged parts much more difficult without providing any functional benetfits.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#279

Post by LexGray »

datameta wrote: post #233
alwaysdoit wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not, it's looking to enshrine that standard by law for everyone. Nothing is stopping consumers from demanding phones that are self-serviceable, they just simply aren't willing to accept the tradeoffs involved (larger size, worse thermals, higher price, etc). If you disagree, there's an unserved market segment wide open for you!

Let's set aside software RTR, which at first glance I believe has no increased costs associated (besides a decreased profit margin from lack of shortened support windows and a locked-down ecosystem). Could you expand on the specifics of what changes RTR would necessitate the hardware to have? Let's say beyond the fact that a non-reversible bond/connector would otherwise be the cheapest option (saving perhaps fraction…

Mandated right repair would raise weight for battery containers and latches, higher failure as connections would not be soldered in place and hinges and latches may fail, less water resistance as seals may get bumped loose, easier access for hardware hacks for bad actors, more potential consumer injury device damage during repair attempts, and more likely fire scenarios in planes and public areas from incorrectly installed parts. It is attempting to deny consumers those benefits.
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