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It's your device, you should be able to repair it

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Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

Be careful. My dad replaced a defective memory chip on his IBM PC XT.. but the computer cost the equivalent of $12k. I’d rather throw away a dozen modern laptops than fix one that costs 10x.

I'd rather repair it myself, or be able to take it to someone local with particular expertise. What's important is that we have a choice!

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#262
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android was explicitly designed to make it easy for component manufacturers to keep their drivers closed. Now that Qualcomm essentially has a monopoly on Android SoCs you can't really build a modern phone that will have up to date software in 3 years. This is why projects like the Pinephone and lebrem5 use such weird SoCs. Open source drivers are absolutely the only way to know that the phone manufacturer will even h…

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the only reason you need a SoC is if you're trying to make the phone small. If you don't care about size you can have discreet components. There are millions of people with big enough pockets (literally and metaphorically) , who wouldn't notice the extra weight of their phone. edit: discreet might be the wrong word because they would all be ICs but not quite a SoC.

The other issue is that none of the SoCs on the market with open source drivers available are remotely competitive in performance with today's Qualcomm/Exynos/Kirin.

The Pinephone and Librem 5 are both using chips that are competitive with low end Snapdragons from 5 years ago.

I think the RK3399 paired with an external modem is about as good as you can do today without needing blobs, and while it performs a whole lot better than the current Pinephone/Librem 5 it is still quite far behind today's SoCs.

In most cases the open source drivers for these mobile SoCs are reverse engineered rather than released by the vendor, which is why they typically only exist for chips that are at least a few years old.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#263
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? A rubber gasket and a few screws work just as well without compromising repairability. Wristwatches have been constructed like this for centuries, while being a lot smaller and lighter than any smartphone. Maybe it would slightly increase the BOM and assembly cost, but considering that it fits in the budget of a 30€ Casio,…

> Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? Glue helps with heat dissipation, physical shocks, vibration knocking plugs loose, provides electrical insulation, chemical resistance, and makes the components less able to vibrate over time and knock things loose, makes sensor positioning more stable, and even makes things easier to assemble since less individual faste…

Your response doesn't actually address the point you quoted.

But yeah. You can either do thoughtful engineering and careful assembly... or you can achieve close to the same thing with glue.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#264
post #144

I fear this is going to turn into some ambiguous law that only big companies will be able to navigate through and you and me still won't be able to repair anything, because it will be deemed "unsafe". There also has to be many years of commissions, banquets, meetings, dinners, bonuses before all civil servants feasting on tax payer money will come up with something.

Maybe they should stop wasting their time (and our money) and simply let us decide for ourselves whether or not we want to buy a device?

That's the status quo, where the government doesn't intervene in issues of repair.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#265
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can choose to forgo owning stuff personally, sure. But that is not everybody's preference. And please don't pretend that "devices aren't built around discrete components anymore". There are plenty of discrete components in a modern phone/laptop/roomba/whatever, that could be replaceable/upgradable by advanced user or entry-level technician, but are not: - battery - screen - storage - RAM - list goes on and on...

I believe the GP was talking about discrete circuitry vs integrated circuits, not so much supporting peripherals.

But their parent wasn't (in fact, they mentioned x86 and AMD, which are integrated circuits).

Look at a random PC (or, until recently, a random laptop): it's made from a lot of individual components that can be swapped out or upgraded independently. Storage, RAM, CPU, GPU, cooling, motherboard, WiFi chip, Bluetooth chip, speakers, microphone, screen, all the peripherals - they're all designed to work together as a category, and to be easily replaceable. I can source each one from a different vendor, and they'll still work. Hell, in many cases, you can even fix individual components, with a hot air station and a steady hand. And if I upgrade a component, my old one can often get a second life inside another computer, possibly someone else's.

It's a good thing to have, and there's nothing stopping modern laptops, tablets and phones to have the same level of upgradeability and swapability. Nothing - except that the vendors don't want to[0]. These things run on the same set of hardware standards as larger computers, and on literally the same software stacks. I[1] should be entirely able to open up my phone, desolder its battery and memory, swap them out for newer and better ones, apply sealant, close the case and have the whole thing work. There's no technical obstacle here - the only problem are the business strategies of the vendors.

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[0] - I have another long rant for the usual "it's customers who chose integrated over repairable" argument, and I'll post it elsewhere in this thread. For now, I'll just say: it's not like anybody is asking customers to choose. These options are not being made available in the first place.

[1] - Or my friend who spent half his life tinkering with electronics. Or the repair shop down the street. A point commonly missed in discussions about Right to Repair (and Free Software) is that it isn't about expecting consumers to do hardware/software work themselves - it's about making it possible for local markets for software and hardware maintenance and repair to exist.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#266
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I still remember times when I was able to replace battery manually at home. This is definitely an issue, but it's not the same issue as planned obsolescence.

Why is it not the same issue? By preventing the users to replace the battery, you force them to buy a new device after a couple of years.

> Why is it not the same issue?

Because the design choices are pretty easily argued to have been made for reasons other than reducing user access, but have the side effect of reducing user access. Both size/weight constraints and case integrity drive you to the same sort of thing.

To be clear, I think it's fine to call out a company for planned obsolescence, and I think it's fine to call them out for emphasizing size, etc. over user serviceability. I just don't think it's useful to pretend they are the same thing.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful. My dad replaced a defective memory chip on his IBM PC XT.. but the computer cost the equivalent of $12k. I’d rather throw away a dozen modern laptops than fix one that costs 10x.

Your comparison does not work. Replaceable parts didn't make that IBM cost what it did.

Yes it did. Computers became cheaper because more and more functionality can simply be combined on single chips. You can not replace parts of broken chips at home.

Look into Apple's M1.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#268

> 'It's your device, ... Sadly, while that /should/ be true, I'm not sure that on any practical level it is anymore. There's about a 1000 ways the manufacturer, carrier, os developer, etc., can make your device entirely useless without you having much of any recourse, because while they can't physically take the device from you, they can stop providing you service.

This is exactly why “Right to repair” rose up to claw that ownership back. If we don’t create laws, at some point down the road we will go from “not much recourse” to literally none. What if Apple created a phone with no ports that was filled with epoxy as the last step in assembly? What if powering it on at all meant logging in to your apple account? They could in every meaningful way take that device away from you…

If that would happen, and it bothers you, just don't buy an Apple phone. Problem solved.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#269
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trend for lack of reparability in smartphones is because of consumer preferences. Consumers are consistently choosing devices that are smaller, lighter, higher durability, waterproof, cheaper etc. vs. devices that are more repairable that do not have those features.

Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? A rubber gasket and a few screws work just as well without compromising repairability. Wristwatches have been constructed like this for centuries, while being a lot smaller and lighter than any smartphone. Maybe it would slightly increase the BOM and assembly cost, but considering that it fits in the budget of a 30€ Casio,…

Can you present me a sleek smartphone design with a rubber gasket and screws? I'm genuinely curious what you have in mind.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#270
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That isn’t planned obsolescence. Yes, it is. Even though Apple devices last longer, after the support is ended, I cannot do anything with them. I cannot update, install anything. They effectively become bricks. If this is not planned obsolescence, then what is?

It's only planned obsolescence if the lifetime of a product is artificially shortened by design choices. It's not clear this applies here.

We know for a fact that Apple was artificially lowering their battery capacity, and that's most likely just the beginning. The PR speak about it being done to protect batteries is BS and we all know it. It incentivizes more purchasing. Much like how the GTA5 loading bug was never solved because it led to more advertisements for digital currency being forced upon one's eyes...

Every update I get on my mac, or Iphone slows it down. Bloat and "protecting the users battery" are the root causes, and ultimately Apple is one of the best examples of a company "artificially shortening" things via design choices.

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