It's your device, you should be able to repair it • Hacker News Board

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#401

Post by zepto » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #58

zepto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that planned obsolescence is not in fact everyone’s business model. Apple’s penetration into the US market is not because the iPhone matches Android in terms of sales, it’s because iPhones last longer and get handed down or resold. Apple literally continues to sell years old devices. That isn’t planned obsolescence. A really simple step in the right direction would be mandated labeling showing how many…

> That isn’t planned obsolescence. Yes, it is. Even though Apple devices last longer, after the support is ended, I cannot do anything with them. I cannot update, install anything. They effectively become bricks. If this is not planned obsolescence, then what is?

Which Apple device do you own that behaves like this?

I have owned many and not one has become useless in this way, not has any I have every heard of.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#402

Post by michaelmrose » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #260

_underfl0w_ wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source to cite for "the approach that the vast majority of purchasers prefer"? That seems pretty speculative. The market can be manipulated or directed by more than simply consumer choice, e.g. by business incentives of product manufacturers.

> Do you have a source to cite for "the approach that the vast majority of purchasers prefer"? I mean, gestures at every consumer-targeted product made since at least the early 'oughts . People want things that are some combination of more capable, more convenient, more reliable, and less expensive. Different consumers obviously make different decisions, but there's a reason you can't go to a car lot and easily find…

Given a choice customers would very likely prefer a toaster that costs ten dollars less and has a 1 in 10,000 chance of burning down their house instead of 1 in 1,00,000 even though saving 10 bucks and accepting a in in 10k chance of burning up your kids, cats, and stuff is an insane choice.

The free market is in short pretty garbage on its own.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#403

Post by jll29 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #62

css wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the European definition of "right to repair" entail, then?

Not exactly the answer to your question but France recently adopted a repairability score that has to be shown, just like the energy efficency class or nutrition labels. The criteria are: 1- Documentation 2- Ease of disassembly, with a subsection on the necessary tools and a focus on the parts that are most likely to be serviced (for smartphones: battery, screen, ...) 3- Availability of spare parts 4- Price of spare…

The idea is good, the implementation needs improvement. Germany hasn't adopted the French approach, but awaits a Europe-wide initiative. Let's hope the lobbyists can't pull its teeth.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#404

Post by zepto » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #79

colejohnson66 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they don’t become bricks. They still work just fine. In fact, on some more recent unsupported devices, you can still redownload apps (but only up to the latest version supporting your device). Did the Apple II become a brick when Apple stopped supporting them? The IBM PC? Why is an older iDevice a “brick”, but not BlackBerrys or Nokias?

Security issues are found in browsers every day. You get no updates anymore and you are not allowed to update yourself. If you care about (not) leaking any of your data, this is effectively a brick.

> They effectively become bricks.

In other words this was complete bullshit.

It’s true that older devices are less capable than newer ones, and you might not want to browse on an old device.

But they aren’t bricks.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#405

Post by zepto » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

joshspankit wrote: post #119

colejohnson66 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they don’t become bricks. They still work just fine. In fact, on some more recent unsupported devices, you can still redownload apps (but only up to the latest version supporting your device). Did the Apple II become a brick when Apple stopped supporting them? The IBM PC? Why is an older iDevice a “brick”, but not BlackBerrys or Nokias?

Here’s another angle: An iPhone 4 with the “last supported OS” is significantly slower than when it had the OS it launched with. This is true across the board, which leads to this very convenient “they can buy used iPhones, but we don’t want them to use them, so we’ll gently guide them to new devices by making it inconvenient and annoying” And before someone argues: Yes, much of the slowdown is because of new feature…

> An iPhone 4 with the “last supported OS” is significantly slower than when it had the OS it launched with.

This ignores the fact that later iPhones with the newest OS are significantly faster than what they launched with, which contradicts the conclusion that this is intentional.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#406

Post by zepto » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

splix wrote: post #181

colejohnson66 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they don’t become bricks. They still work just fine. In fact, on some more recent unsupported devices, you can still redownload apps (but only up to the latest version supporting your device). Did the Apple II become a brick when Apple stopped supporting them? The IBM PC? Why is an older iDevice a “brick”, but not BlackBerrys or Nokias?

You can redownload supporting apps, but the problem is that the official App Store doesn't have them once a new version of OS comes out. I remember when in 2014 I decided to give away my unused iPad 1st gen, just as a e-reader. So I've erased it but no apps were supporting this device already. Even the official Apple Books app. Yes, techicaly it wasn't bricked, it worked, you still can turn it on and off. But without…

Ok - but that’s true of any old device that developers are no longer targeting. Classic Macs for example.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#407

Post by zepto » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #400

google234123 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IT's a ton of work to make and push updates.

I am not speaking about making updates. I am speaking about preventing users from making them.

You know the answer to that - it prevent large classes of social engineering attack and is part of the overall security model.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#408

Post by zepto » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #252

ska wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I still remember times when I was able to replace battery manually at home. This is definitely an issue, but it's not the same issue as planned obsolescence.

Why is it not the same issue? By preventing the users to replace the battery, you force them to buy a new device after a couple of years.

They don’t prevent users from replacing the battery. I’ve done it myself.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#409

Post by zepto » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

Der_Einzige wrote: post #270

ska wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only planned obsolescence if the lifetime of a product is artificially shortened by design choices. It's not clear this applies here.

We know for a fact that Apple was artificially lowering their battery capacity, and that's most likely just the beginning. The PR speak about it being done to protect batteries is BS and we all know it. It incentivizes more purchasing. Much like how the GTA5 loading bug was never solved because it led to more advertisements for digital currency being forced upon one's eyes... Every update I get on my mac, or Iphone s…

> We know for a fact that Apple was artificially lowering their battery capacity.

This is completely false.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#410

Post by zepto » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #91

zepto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that planned obsolescence is not in fact everyone’s business model. Apple’s penetration into the US market is not because the iPhone matches Android in terms of sales, it’s because iPhones last longer and get handed down or resold. Apple literally continues to sell years old devices. That isn’t planned obsolescence. A really simple step in the right direction would be mandated labeling showing how many…

It is planned obsolescence, because at some point I am artificially prevented from installing and running software and/or security updates. This is done by Apple only providing updates up to a certain point, and then keeping the platform locked down, while no longer providing updates. Any closed platform that becomes unsupported and stays locked down is made artificially obsolete. I can buy an original IBM PC, write…

I disagree with the argument that there is any planned obsolescence going on. Lack of support is not the same thing.

However this:

> Once a device no longer receives updates or official support, it should be opened for hobbyists to experiment with.

I agree with and I’d support legislation to that effect.