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EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

cnbc.com

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Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#111

Post by robbie-c »

piokoch wrote: post #47
zibzab wrote: post #2

Unpopular opinion: This was a no brainer. Apple wanted 30% (or was it less for subscriptions?) on any business that used apps, no matter if they used apple infrastructure or not. Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!! Also, I think apple brought this to themselves by picking a fight with Spotify (on Watch support).

I think argument about 30% is not that good. There is a number of services that Apple provides like software distribution, updates distribution, reviews (even though they don't benefit software creator directly, they build trust in the platform and attract more users), invoicing, regardless on the location (this one is really big - getting a single invoice from Apple instead of dealing with potentially thousands of d…

Apple don't let us do any of that ourselves, so it's impossible to say that 30% is an appropriate fee for doing it. If they allowed competitor App Stores or direct downloads, and didn't ban us from even mentioning other ways to purchase a subscription (and other such anticompetitive practices), I would find this more convincing.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#112

Post by ahiknsr »

endisneigh wrote: post #106
ahiknsr wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple has been pretty transparent about the rules I disagree. Apple doesn't let App developers to inform users about the 30% tax. How is that transparent?

It does, though https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-app-s... It’s not a secret at all, lol.

No. "Apple blocked Facebook from informing users that Apple would collect 30 percent of in-app purchases made through a planned new feature, Facebook tells Reuters. Apple said the update violated an App Store rule that doesn’t let developers show “irrelevant” information to users"

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/28/21405140/apple-rejects-fa...

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#113

Post by mrtksn »

f6v wrote: post #94
mrtksn wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes That's not a problem, there's no inartistic correct amount to make for enabling or providing value. For 30 years now, software makes much more than that as numerous industries no longer employ people but software. The problem is, when you own the platform and you start competing on that platform you have an advantage that can be misused. For App…

> The problem is, when you own the platform and you start competing on that platform you have an advantage that can be misused. Except every platform ever built is there to get an unfair advantage. That’s the endgame for all the companies. Why would you build a platform otherwise? There’s a perpetual growth expectation after all.

Yes, the incentives are often perverse. However, there are many reasons to build a platform even if your endgame is not extracting all of the value yourself and that is, make money from the commission on the platform or protect your interest in other businesses through the platform(for example, Android and Chrome platforms protect Google from being pushed out of data collection for advertisement).

Anyway, businesses might have that kind of aspirations but thats why we have governments. An important argument against influence of the businesses in the government and libertarianism.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#114

Post by gambiting »

harywilke wrote: post #78
malka wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not the rules themselves. The rules applies to Spotify, but not to Apple music. Apple should make Apple music a separate entity, and make it pay 30%.

No company should have the power to tell another company that they must split up into separate entities.

Company? No. But a government can absolutely do this and it's a thing that happens all the time, even in the US.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#115

Post by solarkraft »

Multicomp wrote: post #43

If the outcome of this is that they are rquired to enable app installation from sources that are not just their app store, then Apple will likely have a customer from me. Think about it, if they are required to support third party app stores, they might as well enable sideloading. Else someone will form an app store where you submit an app just to download it to your phone. Or maybe that testflight feature is made cr…

I like 90% of the Apple ecosystem (they could tone down the constant rule exemptions for themselves), but side-loading is a requirement. Now that jailbreaking iPhones up to the X is possible again (checkra1n) it's fairly likely that I will buy one.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#116

Post by dkirill »

harywilke wrote: post #78
malka wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not the rules themselves. The rules applies to Spotify, but not to Apple music. Apple should make Apple music a separate entity, and make it pay 30%.

No company should have the power to tell another company that they must split up into separate entities.

No company, but the government should be able to

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#117

Post by finiteseries »

speedgoose wrote: post #11

I wish one of the outcome would be to allow better web browsers than Safari on iOS.

Web (Chrome) developers often go on and on about this, but I have yet to hear a single layman user complain about their iOS version of Chrome missing the ability to have the random news websites they’ve followed from Facebook send them native notifications, take up the entire viewport, or be “installed” to their home screen.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#118

Post by ocdtrekkie »

endisneigh wrote: post #52
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #46

Since this is an EU case, that should mean it'll actually do something, and won't take a decade and a half to conclude. The penalty won't be the big deal here, it'll be what Apple is prohibited from doing. And it'll be really exciting if the precedent set blows back on the entire 30%-rent-seeking-platform-industry.

What percentage is acceptable to you? Perhaps all percentage based transactions are rent seeking and should be made illegal. I’m on board.

The issue is it being a mandatory offering, as opposed to alternative stores. And it's designed to make a profit, not to secure iOS in any meaningful way. (For instance, the requirement on IAPs, despite them not requiring additional software distribution services or app review costs for Apple.)

If Apple wants to secure or curate their platform, fine, but it's now a general computing device, and alternative platforms must be allowed, and most importantly, users must not be prevented from hearing about them.

Imagine the pressure Apple would feel from consumers if they were even still permitted to charge 30% and require companies to use their app store... but they also were required to let apps tell users to go to their website for a cheaper price.

Apple would need to drive it's prices down at least enough to make it worth eating their tax for a smoother experience. The fact Apple prevents consumers from being told about their cut or that things can be gotten cheaper elsewhere is the most insidious and obvious consumer harm in their entire schtick.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#119

Post by tmotwu »

endisneigh wrote: post #38

I personally don’t get it. iOS is a choice. Android is a choice. Neither is a choice. Back in the day, we had Palm, Blackberry, Windows Mobile among others to choose from. The decisions made by the respective companies affected adoption and now we’re left with Android and iOS for now. People compare phone choice to things like electricity and water which makes no sense. Let’s ignore Apple and Google specifically here…

I used to think it was fair. Then I learned that Apple provides exceptions only to some Apps through some sketchy backroom process. [1] Apps that don't directly compete with their products. Enough exceptions to popular apps to minimize push back. If Apple applied this tax universally, with universal acceptance, then it would be a fair "users vote with their wallet" situation. Because a majority of popular apps would immediately refuse their changes and collectively remove themselves from their platform. Then we can decidedly vote with our wallets.

[1] https://9to5mac.com/2020/09/02/developers-highlight-more-ano...

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#120

Post by endisneigh »

ahiknsr wrote: post #112
endisneigh wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does, though https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/apple-announces-app-s... It’s not a secret at all, lol.

No. "Apple blocked Facebook from informing users that Apple would collect 30 percent of in-app purchases made through a planned new feature, Facebook tells Reuters. Apple said the update violated an App Store rule that doesn’t let developers show “irrelevant” information to users" https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/28/21405140/apple-rejects-fa...

That’s a related, but separate issue. My point is that app developers know about the fees. Apple doesn’t hide them.

The issue you’re describing is more of whether Apple should allow App Store developers display messages to the end user of their apps saying that Apple is skimming off the top. Similar to how it would be if Apple said Visa will take 2% or whatever.

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