EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#61

Post by simion314 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:51 AM UTC

piokoch wrote: post #47

zibzab wrote: post #2

Unpopular opinion: This was a no brainer. Apple wanted 30% (or was it less for subscriptions?) on any business that used apps, no matter if they used apple infrastructure or not. Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!! Also, I think apple brought this to themselves by picking a fight with Spotify (on Watch support).

I think argument about 30% is not that good. There is a number of services that Apple provides like software distribution, updates distribution, reviews (even though they don't benefit software creator directly, they build trust in the platform and attract more users), invoicing, regardless on the location (this one is really big - getting a single invoice from Apple instead of dealing with potentially thousands of d…

Steam also has a tax but you still have a choice as a developer or as a gamer. Cyberpunk is on Steam, Gog, Epic and maybe other stores(there are many such games where you as the user can decide what store you trust , what is more comfortable for you or what company you like more).

If you are an iOS developer and and 2 other stores would exists, then you would publish on all to maximize your profit, and hard core Apple fans still get their app from the Apple store but it could cost a bit more.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#62

Post by mrtksn » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:51 AM UTC

zibzab wrote: post #2

Unpopular opinion: This was a no brainer. Apple wanted 30% (or was it less for subscriptions?) on any business that used apps, no matter if they used apple infrastructure or not. Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!! Also, I think apple brought this to themselves by picking a fight with Spotify (on Watch support).

>company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes

That's not a problem, there's no inartistic correct amount to make for enabling or providing value. For 30 years now, software makes much more than that as numerous industries no longer employ people but software.

The problem is, when you own the platform and you start competing on that platform you have an advantage that can be misused. For Apple, the advantage that can be misused is to deny some API or the existence of competing businesses on their platforms. They can also do unfair pricing, for example it could be argued that %30 on Spotify is unfair when Apple has directly competing product.

For Amazon for example, they can have analytics on the businesses on their platforms and create competing products and promote them unfairly.

There are countless examples of Amazon doing this. Google was also fined many times for using their dominance in one area to force dominance in another.

Essentially, it's the good old platform owner getting greedy issue.

IMHO we need platform and product separation rules, similar to the Hollywood rules on separation of production and distribution.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#63

Post by dannyw » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:51 AM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #52

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #46

Since this is an EU case, that should mean it'll actually do something, and won't take a decade and a half to conclude. The penalty won't be the big deal here, it'll be what Apple is prohibited from doing. And it'll be really exciting if the precedent set blows back on the entire 30%-rent-seeking-platform-industry.

What percentage is acceptable to you? Perhaps all percentage based transactions are rent seeking and should be made illegal. I’m on board.

Any percentage is accessible, Spotify just can't be forced to use it.

Don't wanna use Spotify's own billing system? Don't use Spotify, there's Apple music.

Voila. Competition.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#64

Post by dmitriid » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:51 AM UTC

tchalla wrote: post #12

The core issue here is Apple favours their own product over competitors as they control their store. In this case, the product happens to be Music [0]. > The Commission is concerned that users of Apple devices pay significantly higher prices for their music subscription services or they are prevented from buying certain subscriptions directly in their apps. This doesn't seem to be a general issue about the 30/15% cha…

I wish they'd do something about Apple Arcade. The way it's aggressively promoted (slightly less aggressive now than at the beginning) would get any other developer permanently banned from the platform.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#65

Post by Mindwipe » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:51 AM UTC

mnd999 wrote: post #9

It's not clear to me from the article what remedy they're proposing. Seems like it could be any of: * Drop the 30% fee * Drop the 30% fee for apps the compete directly with Apple apps. * Allow users to install other app stores.

They haven't proposed the remedy yet.

I'd suggest -

* Remove the requirement to use Apple for IAPs * Allow users to install software from third parties, including app stores. * Introduce an active choice ballot. * Force Apple to divest the App Store into a separate company that is forbidden from entering into exclusivity arrangements with hardware platforms. * Forbid clauses that require price fixing, or informing consumers of other purchase options.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#66

Post by endisneigh » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:52 AM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #56

endisneigh wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the issue the percentage or skimming off the top? What percentage is acceptable? How did you come up with it? You might as well say that all percentage based transactions should be illegal.

Any percentage is acceptable if Spotify isn't forced to pay it. Any percentage is also acceptable if Apple wasn't directly competing with Spotify.

Isn’t Spotify benefiting from Apple devices? If not, then they can simply not be on Apple devices right?

If they are benefiting, then is it unacceptable for them to pay for the benefit?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#67

Post by ahiknsr » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:52 AM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #50

chipgap98 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A. This market is a duopoly so there is limited opportunity to vote with your wallet. B. Neither is not really a choice for most people. C. It is one thing if Apple wants to charge a percentage of revenue to use their app store. But they have made it against the rules to: allow side loading, allow alternative app stores, link to a web payment option in one of their apps, and even to mention that they charge 30% of th…

> A. This market is a duopoly so there is limited opportunity to vote with your wallet. This was not always the case. What’s stopping a competitor from defeating both Apple and Google? Windows Mobile had a peak market share of about 42%, higher than what Apple has in the EU. My response to B is the same to A. Regarding C what is an acceptable percentage - how did you come up with that number? Apple has been pretty tr…

> Apple has been pretty transparent about the rules

I disagree. Apple doesn't let App developers to inform users about the 30% tax. How is that transparent?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#68

Post by dannyw » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:52 AM UTC

Multicomp wrote: post #43

If the outcome of this is that they are rquired to enable app installation from sources that are not just their app store, then Apple will likely have a customer from me. Think about it, if they are required to support third party app stores, they might as well enable sideloading. Else someone will form an app store where you submit an app just to download it to your phone. Or maybe that testflight feature is made cr…

They will probably just force Apple to allow Spotify to use their own billing system.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#69

Post by endisneigh » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:52 AM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #63

endisneigh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage is acceptable to you? Perhaps all percentage based transactions are rent seeking and should be made illegal. I’m on board.

Any percentage is accessible, Spotify just can't be forced to use it. Don't wanna use Spotify's own billing system? Don't use Spotify, there's Apple music. Voila. Competition.

Spotify doesn’t have to be available on Apple devices at all. The competition you’re describing already exists no?

There’s a contradiction in these arguments. Either Spotify benefits from Apple devices, in which case the fee is a cost of doing business that ultimately benefits them, or they don’t benefit from the arrangement in which case they leave the platform.

It’s the same thing with the food delivery apps and other food apps. There are literally thousands of platforms like this. People should just leave if they don’t like the rules.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#70

Post by f6v » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:54 AM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #49

dustinmoris wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hardly abuse if Apple was the first to invent an iPod and iTunes and the online music business and then evolved their own products around their own offerings. They decided to let others into their own platform to enrich it, not to crush them. Spotify entered knowing that Apple already had a competing product. Why did they enter and start competing if they thought it was an unfair competition from the start? I fi…

It is not about who is first, is about fair competition, If Apple is the best then they should not be afraid to compete fair, let other web browsers exist, let alternative stores exist, let free apps show a Patreon link, let apps show the user the information that they have the choice to buy outside the store (defend this please, this information can harm the user somehow or it harms the pockets of some rich guy)

I don’t think EU cares about fair competition, rather being petty about not having their own FAANG.