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EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

cnbc.com

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Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#41

Post by yarcob »

spzb wrote: post #20
mnd999 wrote: post #9

It's not clear to me from the article what remedy they're proposing. Seems like it could be any of: * Drop the 30% fee * Drop the 30% fee for apps the compete directly with Apple apps. * Allow users to install other app stores.

I don't think they're proposing anything at this point but the obvious remedy would be to allow third party payment options.

I think this would be the best solution.

Apples only (real) reason for forbidding sideloading is because then they could no longer force people to use their payments.

If developers were free to use 3rd party payment solutions, then Apple would probably be a lot more lenient towards side loading apps.

I believe that Apple generally wants to build what's best for their customers, except when money is on the line.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#42

Post by spzb »

oblio wrote: post #31
spzb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was Tim Apple, probably allow third party payment providers (from a list of Apple-approved providers that have to handle disputes, unsubs etc in an approved way). And then charge a per-download fee to apps which offer in-app subscriptions without using Apple's payment option.

Slightly more hidden anti competitive behavior is still that.

It would inevitably lead to claims that alternative app stores should be permitted but it solves the present problem and pushes the second issue a good few years into the future (given the speed that these inquiries move at)

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#43

Post by Multicomp »

If the outcome of this is that they are rquired to enable app installation from sources that are not just their app store, then Apple will likely have a customer from me.

Think about it, if they are required to support third party app stores, they might as well enable sideloading. Else someone will form an app store where you submit an app just to download it to your phone. Or maybe that testflight feature is made cross platform and more permanent?

They still get their $100 sdk rental fee

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#44

Post by chipgap98 »

endisneigh wrote: post #38

I personally don’t get it. iOS is a choice. Android is a choice. Neither is a choice. Back in the day, we had Palm, Blackberry, Windows Mobile among others to choose from. The decisions made by the respective companies affected adoption and now we’re left with Android and iOS for now. People compare phone choice to things like electricity and water which makes no sense. Let’s ignore Apple and Google specifically here…

A. This market is a duopoly so there is limited opportunity to vote with your wallet.

B. Neither is not really a choice for most people.

C. It is one thing if Apple wants to charge a percentage of revenue to use their app store. But they have made it against the rules to: allow side loading, allow alternative app stores, link to a web payment option in one of their apps, and even to mention that they charge 30% of the revenue for in app purchases. That is clearly anti competitive.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#45

Post by endisneigh »

zibzab wrote: post #2

Unpopular opinion: This was a no brainer. Apple wanted 30% (or was it less for subscriptions?) on any business that used apps, no matter if they used apple infrastructure or not. Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!! Also, I think apple brought this to themselves by picking a fight with Spotify (on Watch support).

Is the issue the percentage or skimming off the top? What percentage is acceptable? How did you come up with it?

You might as well say that all percentage based transactions should be illegal.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#46

Post by ocdtrekkie »

Since this is an EU case, that should mean it'll actually do something, and won't take a decade and a half to conclude.

The penalty won't be the big deal here, it'll be what Apple is prohibited from doing. And it'll be really exciting if the precedent set blows back on the entire 30%-rent-seeking-platform-industry.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#47

Post by piokoch »

zibzab wrote: post #2

Unpopular opinion: This was a no brainer. Apple wanted 30% (or was it less for subscriptions?) on any business that used apps, no matter if they used apple infrastructure or not. Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!! Also, I think apple brought this to themselves by picking a fight with Spotify (on Watch support).

I think argument about 30% is not that good. There is a number of services that Apple provides like software distribution, updates distribution, reviews (even though they don't benefit software creator directly, they build trust in the platform and attract more users), invoicing, regardless on the location (this one is really big - getting a single invoice from Apple instead of dealing with potentially thousands of documents) and also marketing.

I spoke once to a guy who was selling English language courses on CDs in brick and mortar stores plus he was sending courses by snail mail. He's got interested in that new at that time App Store thing, so I've asked him about the fee. He said that comparing to his current packaging and distrubution costs, paying stores only to be able to put his product on a shelf those 30% is a laughably small fee.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#48

Post by jsnell »

huhtenberg wrote: post #23
mnd999 wrote: post #9

It's not clear to me from the article what remedy they're proposing. Seems like it could be any of: * Drop the 30% fee * Drop the 30% fee for apps the compete directly with Apple apps. * Allow users to install other app stores.

* Allow alternative payment options. The rest will follow. If supporting alt-monetized apps in AppStore will be too much for Apple, then they should allow AppStore alternatives or start charging hosting/processing fees. If paying through AppStore will be more expensive than paying in some other way, then Apple should lower the fees. Just needs some form of competitive pressure to get the ball rolling.

Yes, this. Except they won't allow alternative payment forms for everything, but try to restrict it to as little as the commission lets them get away with.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#49

Post by simion314 »

dustinmoris wrote: post #34
teknopaul wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

starting first does not mean you are not abusing your monopoly. Another way of looking at this is that a 30% margin is preventing a lot of businesses from happening until Apple do it. The 30% is less of a concern that the fact that they can shut you down on a whim.

It’s hardly abuse if Apple was the first to invent an iPod and iTunes and the online music business and then evolved their own products around their own offerings. They decided to let others into their own platform to enrich it, not to crush them. Spotify entered knowing that Apple already had a competing product. Why did they enter and start competing if they thought it was an unfair competition from the start? I fi…

It is not about who is first, is about fair competition, If Apple is the best then they should not be afraid to compete fair, let other web browsers exist, let alternative stores exist, let free apps show a Patreon link, let apps show the user the information that they have the choice to buy outside the store (defend this please, this information can harm the user somehow or it harms the pockets of some rich guy)

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#50

Post by endisneigh »

chipgap98 wrote: post #44
endisneigh wrote: post #38

I personally don’t get it. iOS is a choice. Android is a choice. Neither is a choice. Back in the day, we had Palm, Blackberry, Windows Mobile among others to choose from. The decisions made by the respective companies affected adoption and now we’re left with Android and iOS for now. People compare phone choice to things like electricity and water which makes no sense. Let’s ignore Apple and Google specifically here…

A. This market is a duopoly so there is limited opportunity to vote with your wallet. B. Neither is not really a choice for most people. C. It is one thing if Apple wants to charge a percentage of revenue to use their app store. But they have made it against the rules to: allow side loading, allow alternative app stores, link to a web payment option in one of their apps, and even to mention that they charge 30% of th…

> A. This market is a duopoly so there is limited opportunity to vote with your wallet.

This was not always the case. What’s stopping a competitor from defeating both Apple and Google? Windows Mobile had a peak market share of about 42%, higher than what Apple has in the EU.

My response to B is the same to A.

Regarding C what is an acceptable percentage - how did you come up with that number? Apple has been pretty transparent about the rules - why buy if you don’t like?

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