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Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

accc.gov.au

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Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#481

Post by modo_mario »

gonehome wrote: post #429
echelon wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not right at all! The world should not work like that. Your car, your choice. You want to install an aftermarket supercharger and fish fins? Your prerogative. Toyota and Apple have no right to tell you what to do.

Then you can buy a different car from the other company that doesn't have this policy. You can even still hack the fins on your car despite the policy, but it might be difficult to do yourself and it'll void your warranty.

>Then you can buy a different car from the other company that doesn't have this policy.

Which now also charges more fucking over consumers because they can and limits more in their favour because ...hey it's a duopoly. There's no pressure to make it a monopoly.

Also as someone else noted apples own actions show that this isn't how they do business given the opportunity.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#482

Post by PoignardAzur »

inopinatus wrote: post #281
simondotau wrote: post #70

This report is somewhat bipolar. On one hand it's arguing that Google and Apple exert too much control over smartphone app marketplaces. On the other hand its proposed remedy asks that Google and Apple exert even more control over these app marketplaces by stamping down on anti-consumer practices like subscription traps and scams. On the other other hand it proposes that Apple and Google should allow third party paym…

The release does not say these things, and it is misleading to intentionally paraphrase as to invent logical conflicts that aren't present. In particular, it is wrong to equate the existence of controls with the abuse of market power. Examples: Kicking a scammer off your app store is a use of power that benefits the consumer. Obliging service providers to mislead the consumer about their subscription options is an ab…

I've skimmed the full report, and OP's assessment feels somewhat fair.

It feels like the ACCC is telling Google and Apple "lower false positives and also lower false negatives".

They do have actionable proposals, eg "coordinated app ‘sweeps’ by consumer protection authorities", and establishing and independent app moderation authority, but overall the message kind of boils down to "do better simultaneously on every single front, even when they contradict each other".

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#483

Post by PoignardAzur »

hugh-avherald wrote: post #79
simondotau wrote: post #70

This report is somewhat bipolar. On one hand it's arguing that Google and Apple exert too much control over smartphone app marketplaces. On the other hand its proposed remedy asks that Google and Apple exert even more control over these app marketplaces by stamping down on anti-consumer practices like subscription traps and scams. On the other other hand it proposes that Apple and Google should allow third party paym…

I think you're looking for an inconsistency where there is none. Requiring Apple and Google to stamp down on subscription traps and scams is not handing more control to them.

Yeah, but in the end it will have similar results.

False negatives trade off against false positives.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#484

Post by PoignardAzur »

fblp wrote: post #81
simondotau wrote: post #70

This report is somewhat bipolar. On one hand it's arguing that Google and Apple exert too much control over smartphone app marketplaces. On the other hand its proposed remedy asks that Google and Apple exert even more control over these app marketplaces by stamping down on anti-consumer practices like subscription traps and scams. On the other other hand it proposes that Apple and Google should allow third party paym…

This is an interim report. It's okay for it to be proposing multiple directions that benefit consumers and competition.

I'm skeptical the final report will be qualitatively different.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#485

Post by emteycz »

devwastaken wrote: post #437
emteycz wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, even when there are only 2 choices. No customer has any right, legal or otherwise, for iPhone-the-universal-and-open-computing-device. Not only that, most customers are customers because it's a walled garden. What are you going to say to a company after it loses customers and revenue and its expenses rise because you took away what made it unique? "Sorry, that's how the system works?", I guess?

Yep, that's how the system works. I have no qualms with forcing the richest company in the world to play fair. You may be under the idea that computers are optional - they're not. Almost everyone has a mobile device, even homeless. They're required to participate in government and business. It's how we rent apartments, pay bills and operate in society. The market has become a public problem by apples hand. Markets no…

Yes, almost everyone has a computing device - and in these cases you listed it's never ever a iPhone. Even if it was, the fact that there is an open alternative is enough to let Apple be alone in making their luxury appliance.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#486

Post by perfobotto »

gonehome wrote: post #390
amelius wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. You and Apple are conflating "App Store" and "Content Filter". We can have multiple App Stores and multiple types of content filters. It doesn't need to be like the current situation, with Apple in full control over everything.

This doesn’t work. It’s not content filtering that I care about, it’s the ability for Apple to enforce standards around usability and features that are better for their users. Without control of the store they lose that leverage. App devs will just ship outside of it and include all the tracking they want. It’ll also block Apple from being able to require things like Apple ID or Apple Pay support which provide direct…

This idea that having a separate App Store would completely render the ecosystem a Wild West of standards like Linux is something I never understood. If they allow side loading developers will still stick with the App Store and their standard if they want to sell, like it happens on android where devs stick with the play store . If people massively reject the App Store if alternative ways of installing an app become available then maybe it wasn’t that valued of a feature in the first place by the users ...

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#487

Post by shawnz »

PoignardAzur wrote: post #478
shawnz wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean a situation like that. What if you just disagree about the best way to achieve the ideal ecosystem? Surely not every customer has the same opinion. Like for example, consider their restrictions on third-party browser engines, JITs, etc. Are you happy about all those choices too?

I don't own an IPhone, so I can't say I'm happy or not about these choices, but at the very least they're not trivially wrong. Forcing the ecosystem to use shared libs for common, expensive taks like browser engines, JITs, etc, has clear benefits in terms of storage and battery life.

Exactly: they might make decisions which are not strictly wrong, but make the platform less useful for certain people/use cases. Eventually you might find that your most important (although niche) use cases have been killed in a death by 1000 cuts, and they specifically disallow any kind of workarounds.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#489

Post by tracer4201 »

CRConrad wrote: post #477
tracer4201 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post I responded to explicitly wrote about alternative app stores. What’s the main purpose of that other than getting rid of apples regulations?

Where did they write that they were going to force you (or anyone else) to download stuff from these alternative app stores?

You’re missing the argument.

Right now I have confidence that anything that can run on my device is signed off and approved by Apple.

That gives me a sense of security and privacy. I don’t have to worry about something being approved or not approved. If there’s an app, I rely on Apple to have signed off on it.

That’s why I buy iPhone.

And all it really comes down to is that Apple has customers who repeatedly give them business each year simply because they like the app ecosystem not being a flea market where anything goes.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#490

Post by naravara »

gonehome wrote: post #54
Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

I agree - Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I like Apple forcing use of in-app-payments, I like Apple giving me subscription control to make canceling easy. I like Apple blocking app tracking and…

Honestly I don’t think the 30% is that bad compared to setting up and managing payment processing yourself. What is difficult for small creators, though, is that Apple owns the customer relationship, not them. Because of the payment processing restrictions creators are unable to do things like offer discount codes or tiered subscription plans for specific kinds of users. It all has to go through what Apple is willing to enable.

This is most stark with their recent announcement of supporting paid podcasts. Particularly because of the anonymization around sign-in with Apple, the podcaster doesn’t actually get to know who their subscribers are. Want to have special rewards or a subscriber only discord channel or forum? Too bad! If any of your biggest fans first started donating through Apple Podcasts you’ve got a big hassle in the way of verifying who they are. Got a weird customer service problem that you’d like to address with a personal touch or maybe offer some store credit or a special reward to make up for it? Once again, too bad. There is no capability to do that.

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