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Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

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Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#401

Post by skohan »

snyp wrote: post #397

Apart from the article, I am pretty sure a lot of the arguments against the AppStore would disappear if Apple just paid more to the developers and reduced it's cut. I hope they find a good middle ground, we definitely need an App Store for the majority of the users out there, something that is relatively safe and allows for massive distribution but also keeps out a lot of malicious actors (its not perfect but its bet…

Honestly I don't see how they can justify more than a few percent cut. They offer no value in terms of discoverability anymore, app stores essentially only serve the purpose of a file host.

But even if they were only taking a 5% cut, I think the argument still stands that they have a negative impact on consumers in that they decide what the hardware you bought is and isn't allowed to do. Apple can invalidate entire business models if they disallow an app on their store, and an entrepreneur can spend millions developing a business only to have it rendered inviable by a change to the terms and services which can be made over night without warning.

All of this could be solved by allowing side-loading. It wouldn't even have to be made easy to do - go ahead and bury it deep in the settings behind a bunch of scary warnings. But I see no excuse for not allowing this at all.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#402

Post by [deleted] »

marticode wrote: post #343
MINPOOL wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can have third-party Android app stores It's just completely unrealistic that a classic consumer will install any other app store on their device, they just use what is there and that's for the majority of Android phones the Play Store. If Google would truly be open for competition, they would let the consumer choose the app store, the search engine and everything else when they first turn on the device.

Sure, but at least you have that option of installing what you want on the hardware you paid for. In contrast, Apple retain full control of the phone. You buy it, but you don't control it.

[deleted]

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#403

Post by gonehome »

Humdeee wrote: post #384
protomyth wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the vast majority, over 99% (literally, I looked it up) of Spotify app users earn Apple nothing because they use it add supported and all the add revenue goes to Spotify. They bought the phone from Apple, so Apple made their money.

This is the comment that lost me. I'm sorry, how should more of the pie go to Spotify here using that argument? Apple 'made their money' on the hardware, therefore Spotify is entitled to a larger ratio on the software? Is that the correct interpretation? Edit: I'll take your downvote as being it was the correct interpretation. It's okay, I didn't expect a reply.

Assuming you’re asking in good faith - Apple sells the hardware, they don’t make the software of other company’s apps.

They force companies to ship through their store, I think that is okay because it enables them to enforce quality standards for users.

I think it’s wrong for them to force this distribution model and then take a cut from every software company.

In the Spotify case Apple forces them to pay a tax and then Apple shows up in their own store priced the same where they obviously don’t have to pay a tax to themselves.

Spotify is entitled to an even playing field.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#404

Post by skohan »

gonehome wrote: post #390
amelius wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. You and Apple are conflating "App Store" and "Content Filter". We can have multiple App Stores and multiple types of content filters. It doesn't need to be like the current situation, with Apple in full control over everything.

This doesn’t work. It’s not content filtering that I care about, it’s the ability for Apple to enforce standards around usability and features that are better for their users. Without control of the store they lose that leverage. App devs will just ship outside of it and include all the tracking they want. It’ll also block Apple from being able to require things like Apple ID or Apple Pay support which provide direct…

I just don't find this very compelling. It's fine for me if the "default mode" of use for Apple's products is a filtered, curated experience. If users have to jump through even a few hoops to side-load apps, 99% of casual users will not do it.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#405

Post by emteycz »

devwastaken wrote: post #400
Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

This is also why I don't let anyone else drive or have a bank account, or anything potentially dangerous at all. Free choice and the ability to make mistakes by ignorance means they can hurt themselves. Therefore the best solution is revoking that ability by force instead of putting the responsibility of learning unto them. It's perfectly acceptable that I get to control everything and crush businesses and users with…

People should be able to freely choose a walled garden. There are benefits that might be important for the person choosing it, and other people can simply choose another platform. I don't see any reason why a single platform should be forced to cater to any and all.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#406

Post by the_local_host »

devwastaken wrote: post #400
Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

This is also why I don't let anyone else drive or have a bank account, or anything potentially dangerous at all. Free choice and the ability to make mistakes by ignorance means they can hurt themselves. Therefore the best solution is revoking that ability by force instead of putting the responsibility of learning unto them. It's perfectly acceptable that I get to control everything and crush businesses and users with…

> Free choice and the ability to make mistakes...

It sounds like the parent poster's relations have freely chosen to delegate their technology management to him or her, and in turn the poster is comfortable delegating that to Apple and their walled garden. If Apple is selling safety, security, and control, and people are buying it, what's the issue?

Potentially the issue is a lack of competition in the market when there are too few options; but it sounds like you're saying that no one should prefer a walled garden option at all.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#407

Post by devwastaken »

emteycz wrote: post #405
devwastaken wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also why I don't let anyone else drive or have a bank account, or anything potentially dangerous at all. Free choice and the ability to make mistakes by ignorance means they can hurt themselves. Therefore the best solution is revoking that ability by force instead of putting the responsibility of learning unto them. It's perfectly acceptable that I get to control everything and crush businesses and users with…

People should be able to freely choose a walled garden. There are benefits that might be important for the person choosing it, and other people can simply choose another platform. I don't see any reason why a single platform should be forced to cater to any and all.

Not when theres only 2 choices, and effectively only 1 choice depending on your work. The rights of wider market and it's consumers involved are higher. This is precedent that's been set time and again in every other consumer facing industry and it applies just as well here.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#408

Post by echelon »

gonehome wrote: post #394
modo_mario wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>society might be better off if someone takes the initiative to meet this demand rather than force a company to roll out the red carpet for it's competition. Would you say the same if the car market suddenly coalesced into a duopoly and the car companies become very restrictive? Would you defend only them being allowed to do basic repairs in the interest of safety? One going as far as saying you need to buy their tir…

I don’t totally agree with your analogy framing. My take: Car company requires third party manufacturers to adhere to its quality standards and pass review before being installed. The car company installs all of the third party parts for you and distributes them globally, handling payment, they charge 30% (or 15%) to the third party for this. If you refuse to adhere to their quality standards they refuse to install y…

That is not right at all! The world should not work like that.

Your car, your choice.

You want to install an aftermarket supercharger and fish fins? Your prerogative. Toyota and Apple have no right to tell you what to do.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#409

Post by aabbcc1241 »

snyp wrote: post #397

Apart from the article, I am pretty sure a lot of the arguments against the AppStore would disappear if Apple just paid more to the developers and reduced it's cut. I hope they find a good middle ground, we definitely need an App Store for the majority of the users out there, something that is relatively safe and allows for massive distribution but also keeps out a lot of malicious actors (its not perfect but its bet…

Ubuntu, Archlinux, centos, npm, conda all have 'official app store'. They work well as gatekeeper to avoid majority users getting malicious software.

At the same time, those 'app store' are not exclusive, they allow 3rd party 'app lists' or at least allow other means to distribute 'apps'.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#410

Post by aabbcc1241 »

gonehome wrote: post #390
amelius wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. You and Apple are conflating "App Store" and "Content Filter". We can have multiple App Stores and multiple types of content filters. It doesn't need to be like the current situation, with Apple in full control over everything.

This doesn’t work. It’s not content filtering that I care about, it’s the ability for Apple to enforce standards around usability and features that are better for their users. Without control of the store they lose that leverage. App devs will just ship outside of it and include all the tracking they want. It’ll also block Apple from being able to require things like Apple ID or Apple Pay support which provide direct…

You as a user has absolute right to choose whatever app that fulfill your own standards around usability and features, w/wo any app stores.
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