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Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

reuters.com

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Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#91

Post by vidarh »

apples_oranges wrote: post #48

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

> It's good to understand many perspectives before picking a side, if any.

With that in mind, I'd point out that the history of unionisation in America (and everywhere) is one of extensive bloodshed as employees have died both from unsafe labour practices [1], as well as from outright murder, intimidation and other attempts at shutting down organisation of labour.

So, yeah, it's divisive. May 1st as the international day for labour demonstrations was put in place to commemorate the Chicago Haymarket Massacre [2], on the request of what is now the AFL-CIO, and to resume the fight for the 8 hour working day that costs many lives and caused far more injuries and people forced out of their jobs - a fight that took many decades.

It's very easy to ask people to not be "divisive" when you're the one with the money and the power, and not the ones who have the rights they have now as a consequence of the deaths and sacrifices of people being "divisive" by daring to stand up for themselves.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#92

Post by chrisseaton »

Dobbs wrote: post #69
chrisseaton wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you read the article It's against the site rules here to suggest people haven't read the article - please don't do this. I was replying to a parent comment which said 'how can anyone oppose a union'. Some people legitimately don't want to have to deal with a union, for any of many reasons. For example because the union supports political goals they don't agree with, or because the union favours other employees o…

Removed the reading the article bit. 1. OP says: unions are good they bring democracy into things. 2. You say: They had a democratic vote 3. I say: The article is alleging that they didn't have a democratic vote. Your comment is clearly stating that the vote was democratic, the unions lost, so we should move on. The entire article that this conversation is about is saying that the vote wasn't democratic and was coerc…

The OP is incredulous that anybody could not want to be in a union.

My point is that some people legitimately do not want to be in a union, and there's nothing unfathomable about this, because they have many downsides. For example where I'm from if you were a Jewish supporter of the Green Party you may find it extremely offensive to have your union representatives promoting the Labour Party.

So you may get a legitimate, democratic, decision to not let the union represent them.

That's the point. Forget about tying it to this particular situation if you want to.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#93

Post by Xylakant »

pydry wrote: post #88
eventualhorizon wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walmart was a very different company under Sam Walton. Sam tried to visit every store once a year. When he got there he would throw the managers out and talk with the employees to find whether or not the managers were doing their jobs. He also believed in empowering the employees. Employees were responsible for particular sections of the store and had access to sales and inventory data and made decisions about how th…

Computerization of stock control and sales made trusting and empowering the employees much less necessary. I suspect his attitude would not have lasted even if he had survived.

One of the largest german drugstore chains still operates by that principle and they're successful with it. Computerized sales will not pick up on certain things - for example stuff that is not available in the store but people ask for.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#94

Post by JoBrad »

emptysongglass wrote: post #79
apples_oranges wrote: post #48

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

I want to go after the presumption that representation foments division. It's an American-made idea and it's not a good one. Take it out and throw it in the bin. Denmark has two thirds of its workforce under a union. I'm not hostile with my employers and I don't need my union representing me 99 percent of the time. If I have a problem I talk directly to my managers like a {woman, man, transperson}. It's only when my…

Maybe you mean for white collar workers? The separation between blue collar management and employees is very old: it’s in verses of “We wish you a Merry Christmas”, and is even discussed in the Bible.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#95

Post by rascul »

LatteLazy wrote: post #56
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One analysis in a local newspaper was something that blew my mind: in the US your health insurance is tied to your employer?!. Just think about how absolutely insane that is. Your boss has life or death power over you and your loved ones. Apparently that's how Amazon was able to threaten it's workers.

In fairness, that's because amazon gives its workers health insurance. Plenty of similar workers get nothing (Walmart for instance). More generally I agree this needs totally rethinking, but Democrats have been trying to do that for at least 20 years so it might be a list cause...

> Plenty of similar workers get nothing (Walmart for instance).

That doesn't seem to be the case. https://one.walmart.com/content/dam/themepage/pdfs/Associate...

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#96

Post by heymijo »

pydry wrote: post #78
heymijo wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe a majority of the workers there prefer the status quo? Analysis showed this is what happened. Please don't mistake that to mean the status quo is good. There is an enormous power imbalance between Amazon and the laborers in Bessemer, Alabama. This has happened many, many times throughout American history. Coal towns are a canonical example of holding all the cards against labor. The hallmarks of that relation…

IIRC amazon managed to swing it so the cohort voting was dominated by newbies who got hit only by the anti union propaganda, hadn't yet suffered the worst excesses from management and were keen to not rock the boat and lose the job they'd just gotten.

That’s good context. Thank you. It speaks to the power imbalance.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#97

Post by vidarh »

ceejayoz wrote: post #75
rovr138 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s also a VERY high premium AND deductible. Not saying it’s not out there, but they both are high.

Here in upstate New York, my insurer's Bronze plans run about $1100/month for a family ( https://myportal.dfs.ny.gov/documents/538523/9578747/Excellu... ). That gets you a $10k family deductible, and a $13,100 max out-of-pocket. https://www.nyhealthinsurer.com/insurance/pdfs/plans/1319 I pay $2,200 a month for a family Platinum plan, in order to get $0 deductible and $4k/year max OOP. The true cost of healthcare is m…

For comparison, UK NHS budget is ~$4500 per year per capita. No deductables.

About ~10% have private insurance in addition to e.g. avoid queues etc. for non-critical care since NHS triages by clinical need. Typical price for private cover is usually ~$50-$200/month per person.

The true scam on the American public is that the way your healthcare is regulated means US taxpayers pay about the same UK taxpayers do towards public healthcare, but Medicare and Medicaid are unable to provide universal care for that money because they're artificially prevented from e.g. negotiating best possible prices for services and drugs, and the rest of the regulatory regime completes a system that is basically welfare for the healthcare and insurance industry.

So you pay roughly that per capita and then your private insurance on top.

Germany got it's first universal public healthcare insurance system in the 1880's under Bismarck because Bismarck was worried about outright revolution, because the notion of being without healthcare was one of the things driving rapidly rising resentment. Most of the rest of the developed world followed over the course of decades. That Americans are still putting up with this kind of massive wealth transfer to corporations by politicians today speaks to a disturbing level of subservience to corporate power.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#98

Post by KSteffensen »

JoBrad wrote: post #94
emptysongglass wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to go after the presumption that representation foments division. It's an American-made idea and it's not a good one. Take it out and throw it in the bin. Denmark has two thirds of its workforce under a union. I'm not hostile with my employers and I don't need my union representing me 99 percent of the time. If I have a problem I talk directly to my managers like a {woman, man, transperson}. It's only when my…

Maybe you mean for white collar workers? The separation between blue collar management and employees is very old: it’s in verses of “We wish you a Merry Christmas”, and is even discussed in the Bible.

I'm also Danish. My dad is a blacksmith, about as blue-collar as it gets, and he would agree with the above representation.

It wasn't so in the past, but for the past 100 years or so, co-operation between unions and employers has been mostly constructive.

This is not a Utopia as some other commenters are saying. It's perfectly achievable if both sides acknowledge they need the other and are willing to discuss issues in good faith.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#99

Post by bko »

heymijo wrote: post #64
bko wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The union is free to pay Amazon employees $15 an hour to watch their propaganda videos. This paternalism of low wage employees needs to stop. They can make up their own mind and actually have skin in the game as opposed to some tech worker making 10x as much telling them they're being brainwashed

This is an ahistorical argument that is wildly ignorant of the power dynamics between labor and capital, with a Nassim Taleb-ism shoe-horned in to a place where it doesn't fit.

How doesn't it fit?

You don't live in this neighborhood. You don't work at an amazon warehouse. You probably don't even know anyone who does. You can comment about power dynamics on a forum for software engineers.

They have the power to seek better employment. Youre the one that wants to strip them of the power for them to vote on matters concerning them directly.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#100

Post by snypher »

bko wrote: post #99
heymijo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an ahistorical argument that is wildly ignorant of the power dynamics between labor and capital, with a Nassim Taleb-ism shoe-horned in to a place where it doesn't fit.

How doesn't it fit? You don't live in this neighborhood. You don't work at an amazon warehouse. You probably don't even know anyone who does. You can comment about power dynamics on a forum for software engineers. They have the power to seek better employment. Youre the one that wants to strip them of the power for them to vote on matters concerning them directly.

Please don't personally attack people here - I fit most of your criteria posted and your post seems very exclusionary.
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