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Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

reuters.com

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Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#51

Post by geofft »

bko wrote: post #42
sammorrowdrums wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be willing to listen to that line of argument, but having seen the Amazon manager training videos, the doitwithoutdues.com site, the countless other articles, evidence and anecdotes about Amazon's particularly aggressive forms of trying to prevent unionisation, the twitter ambassadors tweeting the official talking points etc. I don't think we can rule out the possibility we don't actually know what the employ…

The union is free to pay Amazon employees $15 an hour to watch their propaganda videos. This paternalism of low wage employees needs to stop. They can make up their own mind and actually have skin in the game as opposed to some tech worker making 10x as much telling them they're being brainwashed

Why are you deeply concerned about paternalism from tech workers who aren't even in contact with the employees in question and are just posting on a message board, and not concerned about potentially-illegal paternalism from the bosses of the employees?

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#52

Post by geofft »

dannyw wrote: post #3

Amazon is offering competitive wages (especially for Albama's cost of living), and benefits from day one. Maybe a majority of the workers there prefer the status quo?

Maybe! If so, a free, fair, and legal vote will tell us that!

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#53

Post by ceejayoz »

apples_oranges wrote: post #48

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

Are Walmart "associates" particularly well off as a result?

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#54

Post by roody15 »

Once upon a time Republicans represented the managerial and investor class and Democrats represented labor (1920’s-1990’s).

Now the corporate DNC is just pro mega corps with lip service to corporate safe “progressive” topics that don’t challenge their power. Identity politics etc.

Sorry more of a rant here but I don’t see unions getting much help anytime in the press or national stage and doubt Apple, Google, Wal mart and Amazon will see any real movement towards unionization.

It’s almost like a movie script... see we were open to the idea of unions ... but the people “chose” not to unionize ... wink.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#55

Post by mikepurvis »

offtop5 wrote: post #50

Isn't it a completely rational fear that Amazon would just fire most employees if they unionize against Amazon's wishes. Even if this isn't exactly legal, it would take years to sort it out in court. Rent's due Monday, no one has time to wait for justice to prevail

Well yes, but that sort of precariousness and the obviousness of the power imbalance between the parties is precisely what makes a union so necessary in the first place.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#56

Post by LatteLazy »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #12
dannyw wrote: post #3

Amazon is offering competitive wages (especially for Albama's cost of living), and benefits from day one. Maybe a majority of the workers there prefer the status quo?

One analysis in a local newspaper was something that blew my mind: in the US your health insurance is tied to your employer?!. Just think about how absolutely insane that is. Your boss has life or death power over you and your loved ones. Apparently that's how Amazon was able to threaten it's workers.

In fairness, that's because amazon gives its workers health insurance. Plenty of similar workers get nothing (Walmart for instance).

More generally I agree this needs totally rethinking, but Democrats have been trying to do that for at least 20 years so it might be a list cause...

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#57

Post by ceejayoz »

offtop5 wrote: post #50

Isn't it a completely rational fear that Amazon would just fire most employees if they unionize against Amazon's wishes. Even if this isn't exactly legal, it would take years to sort it out in court. Rent's due Monday, no one has time to wait for justice to prevail

Yes, it's a rational fear.

There should probably be GDPR-style "significant percentage of corporate global revenue" penalties available in these scenarios.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#58

Post by claudiawerner »

bko wrote: post #42
sammorrowdrums wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be willing to listen to that line of argument, but having seen the Amazon manager training videos, the doitwithoutdues.com site, the countless other articles, evidence and anecdotes about Amazon's particularly aggressive forms of trying to prevent unionisation, the twitter ambassadors tweeting the official talking points etc. I don't think we can rule out the possibility we don't actually know what the employ…

The union is free to pay Amazon employees $15 an hour to watch their propaganda videos. This paternalism of low wage employees needs to stop. They can make up their own mind and actually have skin in the game as opposed to some tech worker making 10x as much telling them they're being brainwashed

Of course they can make up their own mind - but simply pointing out the existence of propaganda and other factors at play, and the fact that ideology plays a large role in our lives, does not imply 'brainwashing' as much as ideological forces. The tug-of-war between labour and capital has been raging for centuries, and at no time hitherto is it more visible that it has graduated to the ideological battlefield when Amazon starts putting up posters and training their employees on otherwise hilarious videos to push their point of view.

And I think anyone should point that out - whether it's a union organizer in Alabama, a tech worker making 10x the salary (who, by the way, may also have an interest in improving cultural support for unions if they are a tech worker in favour of software engineer unions) or a historian on capital-labour relations. As far as I know, however, no tech worker has contacted anyone in Alabama and told them they're brainwashed.

'Paternalism' would be someone pushing the ballot for them 'for their own interests'. That does not preclude discussion of priorities, rationality, and the rational frameworks (epistemological/ideological/moral/practical/etc.) we have available to discuss how wise those decisions are.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#59

Post by modo_mario »

nieksand wrote: post #16
robobro wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an iww organizer with friends across the US in Amazon warehouse management and on the ground- no Unions are just bringing democracy into capitalism. How can any red blooded American oppose them? Edit: not sure why I'm being down voted, did I say something offensive??

1. At their best unions protect members from managerial malfeasance, but unions also go out of their way to protect incompetents who should be fired. That is soul crushing as a coworker, bad for the company, and possibly harmful to customers. 2. Unions are heavily involved in politics. As a worker, part of your paycheck is being seized to support politicians whom you may vehemently oppose. 3. American unions fixate o…

Why is this taken as the only way these things can be in the US? My experience in Belgium is very different.

>1. At their best unions protect members from managerial malfeasance, but unions also go out of their way to protect incompetents who should be fired. That is soul crushing as a coworker, bad for the company, and possibly harmful to customers.

As far as I'm aware there's not much our unions here in Belgium can do about that. If there's a legitimate reason they have no interest in spending their funds fighting a court case going nowhere. They do occasionally take action when it's harmfull to the company when there's legitimate reason for firing but this involves the company laying of lots of people when they are closing down a division or plant or so which generally doesn't stop it but makes the closing more fitting to the workers.

>2. Unions are heavily involved in politics. As a worker, part of your paycheck is being seized to support politicians whom you may vehemently oppose.

Our largest unions are very plainly politically aligned. We have a leftist union, christian democrat union, liberal union and then a neutral union or 2 , industry specific unions. Either way tho part of my paycheck does not go to politicians and if it did not to politicians i don't align with. In fact what i pay to the union is a tiny sum. They compete among eachother and these big unions operate at scale.

>4. Unions foster adversarial relationships within companies, an us/them mentality against "management". Sometimes the environment is already toxic so nothing is lost, but it can also turn an otherwise reasonable workplace sour.

I don't think we interact with our unions much on average. My experiences with them were limited to. 1) them blocking entry for trucks ( i could just walk in) when there was a big announced nationwide protest regarding things like wage indexation i believe. 2) Them checking the legality of the contract i was offered and given pointers. 3) Them paying me my unemployment at some point and handling the paperwork.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#60

Post by heymijo »

dannyw wrote: post #3

Amazon is offering competitive wages (especially for Albama's cost of living), and benefits from day one. Maybe a majority of the workers there prefer the status quo?

> Maybe a majority of the workers there prefer the status quo?

Analysis showed this is what happened. Please don't mistake that to mean the status quo is good. There is an enormous power imbalance between Amazon and the laborers in Bessemer, Alabama.

This has happened many, many times throughout American history. Coal towns are a canonical example of holding all the cards against labor. The hallmarks of that relationship exist here.

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