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Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

reuters.com

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Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#21

Post by cool_dude85 »

djbebs wrote: post #18
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One analysis in a local newspaper was something that blew my mind: in the US your health insurance is tied to your employer?!. Just think about how absolutely insane that is. Your boss has life or death power over you and your loved ones. Apparently that's how Amazon was able to threaten it's workers.

There is nothing stopping you from buying your own health insurance. You used to be able to go without, but thanks to Obama care that is now not an option, and you are forced to do business with insurers

This is untrue.

There was a mild penalty for not having a qualifying insurance plan, but now no such penalty exists.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#22

Post by chrisseaton »

Dobbs wrote: post #15
chrisseaton wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions are just bringing democracy into capitalism. How can any red blooded American oppose them? Well they had a democratic vote and decided they did not want to be represented by this union. That's democracy working.

In the article it is made very clear that what is being alleged is that it wasn't a democratic vote. What is being alleged is that Amazon threatened to close the warehouse, and/or fire people based upon how they vote. Something that if I understand correctly is illegal, and even if not illegal is definitely not a democratic vote.

> If you read the article

It's against the site rules here to suggest people haven't read the article - please don't do this.

I was replying to a parent comment which said 'how can anyone oppose a union'. Some people legitimately don't want to have to deal with a union, for any of many reasons. For example because the union supports political goals they don't agree with, or because the union favours other employees over them, or they just don't want to have to deal with two overlords, neither of which may be working to their benefit.

If they're asked and they say 'no thanks' then the union should just say 'ok thanks for letting us know' and leave them alone.

There's a weird attitude amongst unions that there is no possible way anyone could not want to be represented by them. That leads them to accuse any vote against them of being illegitimate.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#23

Post by barry-cotter »

robobro wrote: post #5
dannyw wrote: post #3

Amazon is offering competitive wages (especially for Albama's cost of living), and benefits from day one. Maybe a majority of the workers there prefer the status quo?

As an iww organizer with friends across the US in Amazon warehouse management and on the ground- no Unions are just bringing democracy into capitalism. How can any red blooded American oppose them? Edit: not sure why I'm being down voted, did I say something offensive??

You’re attempting to use both red and blue coded language in the same sentence without making it clear that you despise the other one. The kind of college educated people who approve of unions would be appalled to be called a red blooded American. The kind of person who would be happy to identify as a red blooded American was a mainstay of the Democratic Party into the 80s or 90s but much less so now. Party identification is almost done changing from being about how much money you make to whether you went to college or not.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#24

Post by josefx »

robobro wrote: post #5
dannyw wrote: post #3

Amazon is offering competitive wages (especially for Albama's cost of living), and benefits from day one. Maybe a majority of the workers there prefer the status quo?

As an iww organizer with friends across the US in Amazon warehouse management and on the ground- no Unions are just bringing democracy into capitalism. How can any red blooded American oppose them? Edit: not sure why I'm being down voted, did I say something offensive??

Comrade you are thinking communist thoughts, it hasn't been that long ago that the U.S. army would end any workers rights protest guns blazing. Protecting the FREEDOM(TM) of US companies to exploit anyone and anything all over the world.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#25

Post by IntelMiner »

enkid wrote: post #19
djbebs wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing stopping you from buying your own health insurance. You used to be able to go without, but thanks to Obama care that is now not an option, and you are forced to do business with insurers

Imagine a world where being able to not have access to healthcare is a good thing.

Americans always say it should be "their choice" and I just feel like I'm staring at an incomplete jigsaw puzzle

Like. It's your choice to...go bankrupt or die from a treatable illness? I don't know what they expect non-Americans to draw from that line of reasoning

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#26

Post by Miner49er »

djbebs wrote: post #18
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One analysis in a local newspaper was something that blew my mind: in the US your health insurance is tied to your employer?!. Just think about how absolutely insane that is. Your boss has life or death power over you and your loved ones. Apparently that's how Amazon was able to threaten it's workers.

There is nothing stopping you from buying your own health insurance. You used to be able to go without, but thanks to Obama care that is now not an option, and you are forced to do business with insurers

I don't think this is true? It depends on several different things. If Amazon covers 100% of the insurance then they have to take it, or if it's in their employment contract that they have to take it, then they have to.

Additionally, if they are paid a low enough emount that they qualify for government subsidies on health insurance, they can't get those if they deny the Amazon supplied insurance. Edit: I checked, and Amazon warehouse workers are paid little enough that they get the subsidies, so without them, I'm skeptical they could afford insurance, especially if they have a family.

Finally, you can't switch any time, it can only be done during an open enrollment period or if you have a major life event like getting married, I think?

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#27

Post by nraynaud »

chrisseaton wrote: post #11
sammorrowdrums wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be willing to listen to that line of argument, but having seen the Amazon manager training videos, the doitwithoutdues.com site, the countless other articles, evidence and anecdotes about Amazon's particularly aggressive forms of trying to prevent unionisation, the twitter ambassadors tweeting the official talking points etc. I don't think we can rule out the possibility we don't actually know what the employ…

> And I certainly don't think Amazon would put so much effort into fighting this if their employee treatment, benefits and compensation and general employer track record made employees genuinely not even consider the Union option. You can say the same thing about any political campaign! Do you think people must not really want Joe Biden as president because he had to spend $6 billion to persuade them through campaign…

it's a bit different, voting for a Democrat president is excluding the Republican one.

When you vote for an union, you absolutely do not vote for your employer to become an asshole, it's not "either the union make the employer improve employees work OR the employer does it on its own". The union and the employer could create an alliance to make life better for the employees. Look at what police unions and conservative towns have done, unionized policemen can literally get away with murder.

There is no exclusive choice as to who should plan bathrooms breaks for runners and drivers: either the employer, or the union, as long as people stop having to pee in a bottle, you could even have a coalition with a giant conspiracy to have employee go to the bathroom when they need to.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#28

Post by jiminymcmoogley »

refurb wrote: post #9
sammorrowdrums wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be willing to listen to that line of argument, but having seen the Amazon manager training videos, the doitwithoutdues.com site, the countless other articles, evidence and anecdotes about Amazon's particularly aggressive forms of trying to prevent unionisation, the twitter ambassadors tweeting the official talking points etc. I don't think we can rule out the possibility we don't actually know what the employ…

Voting goes the way I think it should = people rationally voted for their best interest despite all the propaganda Voting doesn't go the way I think it should = people were clearly swayed by propaganda and didn't vote in their best interest Either we treat people like adults and trust their voting or we don't. One doesn't get to pick and choose which voting is "right".

Lots of propaganda and dark pattern stuff I saw with my own two eyes used in the campaign, and now possibly even coercion (compulsion to act involuntarily under threat of force) = people may or may not have voted rationally in their best interest despite or because of all the propaganda. my opinion on the result irrelevant either way. in fact i dont even need to mention it, it's that irrelevant. the outcome of the election itself was compromised and there is no magic time travel button to find out what would have happened if we did it over. therefore we must take the results at face value and just really really hope as hard as we can that this is the same outcome as it would have been otherwise

Not lots of propaganda and dark pattern etc etc = people rationally voted for their best interest, again regardless of my opinion on the result

Either we treat elections like they matter and dont unduly manipulate the outcome or we don't. One doesn't get to pick and choose which elections are "questionably carried out"

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#29

Post by gspr »

esyir wrote: post #7
robobro wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an iww organizer with friends across the US in Amazon warehouse management and on the ground- no Unions are just bringing democracy into capitalism. How can any red blooded American oppose them? Edit: not sure why I'm being down voted, did I say something offensive??

You have democracy in your capitalism already, that's what your elected government and their regulations are.

And who's to say that that has to be the only one?

(Except that there's not even just one; there's a wide range of elections from the national level, to the local, or even maybe down to your city block in some places).

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#30

Post by bongobingo »

enkid wrote: post #19
djbebs wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing stopping you from buying your own health insurance. You used to be able to go without, but thanks to Obama care that is now not an option, and you are forced to do business with insurers

Imagine a world where being able to not have access to healthcare is a good thing.

If you’re not American, it’s difficult to understand.

However, insurance is an absolute scam in the US. You pay hundreds of dollars per month for the privilege of having to pay thousands of dollars before your insurance will start paying. For many families the monthly premiums could run over a thousand dollars, and the deductible could be $15,000.

…or you could get some cheap catastrophic insurance, and pay cash for everything else. The cash price is generally less than half of the insurance price.

Many people have done the math and concluded that they don’t need insurance.

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