Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#181

Post by macintux » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:35 AM UTC

edrxty wrote: post #112

havernator wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then choose something else? I mean, lobby for the change if you like, but you're eliminating my favored choice if you succeed.

We can both have our cake and eat it too, we just need either an unlocked bootloader, or the ability to sideload apps over an ADB-like usb interface. People who don't want that functionality will never know it's there and there won't be any decrease in security.

As soon as Apple offers that, companies like Facebook will tell their users that in order to install their apps, they have to sideload it.

And people will go willingly into that dark night.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#182

Post by Aunche » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:35 AM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #54

Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

I agree - Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I like Apple forcing use of in-app-payments, I like Apple giving me subscription control to make canceling easy. I like Apple blocking app tracking and…

>That's obnoxious and anti-competitive, particularly in cases like Spotify where they directly compete and undercut them in the same market.

How many Spotify users paid through their App though? I'd imagine it would only be a tiny fraction.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#183

Post by ninjin » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:35 AM UTC

orangeoxidation wrote: post #106

ninjin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This point of view comes up from time to time and it is and has always been a false choice. What you need is a consensual mechanism to relinquish in part or entirely aspects of your control to Apple in exchange for convenience/security. Think “parental control”, it does not come with the need to shut down a device as a whole, but simply with an interface to bar certain areas off if you so desire. Now, implementing th…

It's not possible to make this a switch the user can turn on or off (with reasonable effort). Take the alternative app store. If they are allowed you will have some with exclusive apps. Those apps are then outside the apple rules and you have to have to hit the switch if you want them. So you loose out on the app or on all your apps being apple rule / account / payment compatible. If there is no alternative store you…

> It's not possible to make this a switch the user can turn on or off (with reasonable effort).

Frankly, citation needed. If phone manufacturers can find ways to unlock bootloaders, I refuse to believe that there is no way to allow for sideloading of some form on iOS. It particularly disturbs me how this comes from the “Think different” camp which praises the quality of its software to high heaven. Nowhere have I argued that the line should be drawn at “free mixing of application stores”, yet I continue to get the same boilerplate arguments that any move from the current status quo will lead to a complete collapse of the allegedly all so superior iOS ecosystem. I do not buy it.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#184

Post by havernator » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:36 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #146

havernator wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd care about this a lot less if the government first outlawed most personal data collection & hoarding (by tech companies and others) before we go destroying the libertarian solution to this (outsource regulation to a company, which is what I'm choosing to do, given the alternatives)

It's not really destroying it. You can still refuse to install any apps not approved by Apple, even if other people do. It might even be a good test. If Facebook decides they can't be in Apple's store even though the app is free and there is no government pressure for Apple to block it, you might take pause to ask why and decide that you don't want that app.

I already don't use Facebook, but I take your more general point. The main thing I don't want is to feel network-effect pressure from some huge non-Apple platform to install from sources with worse privacy and security guarantees. iOS is so big that effectively no mass-market mobile software can afford to ignore it, and Apple's rules force them to play (somewhat) nice when they show up.

Let's say I did like Facebook, or at least tolerated it because all my family was on it, and chose to use it only on iOS specifically because it was relatively secure and limited their snooping somewhat. Your scenario is a strictly worse situation for me. I was using it and was OK with the situation, now I have to either risk more snooping or drop it. That's not better.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#185

Post by 8note » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:36 AM UTC

meepmorp wrote: post #123

edrxty wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people need more functionality than iOS and its associated apps provide to do their jobs (ie embedded development/testing) among other things. Sure, "just go to Android/whatever" but Apple is quickly gaining a monopoly on not-shitty hardware and the combination of these two things is not ok by any stretch of the imagination. Apple could provide the option of unlocking the bootloader and providing some driver cod…

> Apple is quickly gaining a monopoly on not-shitty hardware By "quickly gaining a monopoly", do you mean they've somehow made it impossible for another multi-billion dollar company to do a decent job on designing and building a phone?

Specifically the building gets quite hard when apple has purchased the chip making capacity

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#186

Post by hydrox24 » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:37 AM UTC

Mandatum wrote: post #85

simondotau wrote: post #70

This report is somewhat bipolar. On one hand it's arguing that Google and Apple exert too much control over smartphone app marketplaces. On the other hand its proposed remedy asks that Google and Apple exert even more control over these app marketplaces by stamping down on anti-consumer practices like subscription traps and scams. On the other other hand it proposes that Apple and Google should allow third party paym…

Agreed. It's "the stores are extracting too much money for the services they provide and the way they run" without any concrete asks. Likely because we're in unexplored territory, I expect ACCC is using this release as a form to push other agencies to move first to see what happens. Australia NEVER moves first on these things. They want EU or US to make a move first to see what works.

> Australia NEVER moves first on these things.

I think it is uncommon for Australia to move first, but we do move first sometimes. I thought the recent news revenue-sharing laws[0] are an example of that.

> They want EU or US to make a move first to see what works

It's always nice to know how a policy will work beforehand, but I don't think it's remarkable how rarely Australia moves first. Putting aside cultural differences, we're a medium power in a world with many medium powers, even in the West, why would we expect to be first, ahead of European countries, or North American ones, or developed nations in Asia?

[0]: https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/australias-ne...

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#187

Post by ThatPlayer » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:38 AM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #9

ent101 wrote: post #6

I feel like we keep getting these inquiries/lawsuits/press releases every year but, literally, nothing gets any better at all. Every developer KNOWS that Google is extremely abusive towards them solely because of their position in the market yet nothing ever improves. If these are not illegal monopolies, what is?!

Well, the problem is that they aren't monopolies. They may be problematic but we don't have laws or regulations to deal with this specific situation. And when we call it a "monopoly" because that seems to be the closest thing then the defenders of these organizations can say "but it's not a monopoly!" and they are right. So if you think it is problematic to have two players in a market even when they are on equal foo…

EU has previously declared them a monopoly when they fined Google, because they don't compete : https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_18_...

>Google's app store dominance is not constrained by Apple's App Store, which is only available on iOS devices.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#188

Post by bogwog » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:39 AM UTC

encryptluks2 wrote: post #23

You can have third-party Android app stores. Can you say the same about Apple? While I agree that Google has market-dominance, they are not anti-competition or anti-consumer in the same sense as Apple. Android is open source, Chrome OS is open source, etc. Google is actually providing and contributing something back to the community. Apple intentionally locks people to specific hardware and to their app store.

This is a bad take. Google is just as guilty of anti-competitive behavior as Apple. Sure, a third party store can exist in the Android ecosystem, but what are the chances that it can be commercially viable? It's practically impossible.

* Google shows countless scary warning dialogs to users who even think about installing a third party store. Any competitor trying to run an alternative store needs to somehow educate potential consumers on the process of enabling "unknown sources", and convincing them that doing so won't actually kill you (translates directly into higher business expenses, and is probably an impossible obstacle to overcome to reach the majority of consumers)

* Google regularly monitors apps installed outside of the Play store with their "Play Protect" thing, which is an opt-in virus scanner, except not really. When you install an APK, they ask you for permission to enable Play Protect. If you decline, they'll just keep asking you again and again until you accept either by accident, or do it so they stop annoying you. Through Play Protect, Google is able to arbitrarily block any app they consider to be "potentially harmful". Consider that they regularly ban apps by accident on the Play Store using their broken AI, and that those registered developers struggle to get those erroneous bans reversed. I'd imagine getting a ban from Play Protect reversed is nearly impossible.

* Google has a full time hit squad of penetration testers called "Project Zero" which goes around checking competitors for vulnerabilities so they can make big scary press releases about how unsafe the competition is (even though Google Play itself is riddled with malware).

And also, this isn't related to the anti-competitive stuff, but I feel compelled to point it out:

> Android is open source

Yes, Android is open source. The operating system on your Android phone is not open source. Pretty much the only people who benefit from Android being open source are:

* Device manufacturers, who don't have to develop an OS to sell phones, and can install whatever they want on it, like spyware, ads, keyloggers, etc that can't be uninstalled by the user

* Power users and mod developers who are fighting the good fight against that kind of thing (but are hopelessly outgunned)

Saying that something is "open source" usually comes with the understanding that it's a good thing for users and freedom, except in this case it's not.

Say what you will about Apple, but at least they're honest about what they are. Google is still stuck in that cognitive dissonance phase from when they first became 100% evil.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#189

Post by PostThisTooFast » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:39 AM UTC

encryptluks2 wrote: post #23

You can have third-party Android app stores. Can you say the same about Apple? While I agree that Google has market-dominance, they are not anti-competition or anti-consumer in the same sense as Apple. Android is open source, Chrome OS is open source, etc. Google is actually providing and contributing something back to the community. Apple intentionally locks people to specific hardware and to their app store.

Come on. The Android "open-source" fraud has been exposed by a decade and a half of orphaned devices, as millions of users wait months, years, or forever for their telcos to dribble out hacked and essentially proprietary versions of Android for each device, ONE AT A TIME. And you continue to hear about people having to "root" their devices to do things. WTF.

In the 2000s, Google managed to produce an OS without a proper hardware-abstraction layer or driver model, so users can't simply install updates as they come. Meanwhile, ancient Windows runs on millions of disparate hardware combinations without breaking the software running on top of it with every release. And even if you allow for different mobile CPUs, that's still only a few builds that should have been needed.

Google should stick to what it does best: hiding from customers and behaving like douchebags.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#190

Post by fredophile » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:40 AM UTC

simondotau wrote: post #168

fredophile wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is fragmentation a problem? There's already fragmentation of the smartphone software ecosystem. How is an app that ships on iOS but not the apple store any different to you than an app that doesn't ship on iOS at all? Either way if you choose to only buy apps through apple you can't get it.

Fragmentation means that many apps I want would no longer be available through a vendor that I trust. No, that trust isn't blind or absolute. Yes, I recognise that Apple's review process is patchy at best—but most developers also fear getting on the wrong side of them and THAT alone has been pretty damn effective at keeping most apps under control.

I'm not convinced this is as big a problem as you think it is. If I chose iOS over Android specifically for privacy reasons I'd be interested in knowing what companies avoid the app store to bypass their privacy restrictions. Do you really want to use a product from a company that would do that as soon as they have the chance or would you rather label them as untrustworthy and find an alternative?