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Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

accc.gov.au

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Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#101

Post by parasubvert »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #66
mulmen wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the problem is that they aren't monopolies. They may be problematic but we don't have laws or regulations to deal with this specific situation. And when we call it a "monopoly" because that seems to be the closest thing then the defenders of these organizations can say "but it's not a monopoly!" and they are right. So if you think it is problematic to have two players in a market even when they are on equal foo…

Whether something's a monopoly depends on context. If I live in a country with only one phone provider, is that a monopoly? To someone living in that country, yes. But, I could live in another country, and use another phone provider. See, I have choice, therefore it's not a monopoly, right? If you buy an Apple device, your only choice for where to get apps from is from Apple's store. Within that market, they are a mo…

There is no “Apple market” and “Google market”, there is just one market for apps. The respective app stores are direct sales channels. This direct sales exclusivity (ie. no resellers) exists in many other industries.

The argument is about whether forcing open channel reseller participation is beneficial to consumers. This was done with the American car franchise dealership, which was legally enforced across most states to protect dealers from being competed with by direct sales, and also to prevent pricing and quality shenanigans with repairs in the old days when cars needed constant repairs and there were more car companies that might pull out of a market and leave consumers without a proper repair facility .

But this model has been falling apart from a consumer POV who largely prefer direct sales and repairs these days (see Tesla), and direct sales largely save the customers money (the $ of vehicles is higher with a dealership model).

I suspect folks need to be careful what they wish for. The 30% cut (or near it) will almost certainly be retained in an open store model if the store isn’t otherwise subsidized.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#102

Post by havernator »

theli0nheart wrote: post #93
havernator wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, ~100% of the software available for iOS has to follow Apple's rules, offer a consistent and safe payment method, and install through the App Store. I assume you think that would change, else why have other app stores. That's what I don't want. I want as close to 100% of the software for iOS as possible to have to follow the rules. That's part of why I chose iOS.

> ~100% of the software available for iOS has to follow Apple's rules, offer a consistent and safe payment method, and install through the App Store. Scams are rampant in the App Store. Give an unlocked iPhone to a 5 year old and they'll spend $1000 before you know it. This is not something worth defending. https://9to5mac.com/2021/02/12/developer-reveals-fake-app-st...

Pointing out one bad thing doesn't change a bunch of other good things, nor does adding more app stores seem like a useful solution to the problem raised.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#103

Post by sfifs »

numair wrote: post #61

There is no reason Apple and Google couldn’t set up an App Store Certification framework which would allow trusted third parties to operate their own app stores that were regularly audited and liable for breaches of security. In fact, this would be far better than the current approach, where these business units are largely unaccountable and hidden behind layers of corporate complexity (which eventually leads to dysf…

Google already does this to a certain extent by allowing other app stores and will I think very likely move towards certifying other payment frameworks as app store payments is not a significant revenue stream for them - they'll probably negotiate this as part of an antitrust deal with prosecutors

Apple OTOH seems to depend on this for 15-20% of annual revenue and this is going to be much more difficult for them

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#104

Post by efraim »

havernator wrote: post #77
encryptluks2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I don't understand the argument Apple users are presenting. Its like they can't comprehend that they can have an option to install third-party apps but they don't have to enable or use that if they like being "protected" from hurting themselves.

Right now, ~100% of the software available for iOS has to follow Apple's rules, offer a consistent and safe payment method, and install through the App Store. I assume you think that would change, else why have other app stores. That's what I don't want. I want as close to 100% of the software for iOS as possible to have to follow the rules. That's part of why I chose iOS.

You could very easily not install any other store or use any other payment system if you don't want them. You can keep your device 100 % Apple approved even if there exist alternatives. Why take that choice away from others?

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#105

Post by parasubvert »

twitch-chat wrote: post #89
parasubvert wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not asinine just because you disagree. They already are competing. There is Android, and there is iOS. Apple certainly could be hemmed in on clear areas of conflict like Spotify. Opening the platform is not traditional antitrust because consumers like it this way - it’s more about charity for the competition.

By consumers do you mean the loud but very small minority that defend Apple in comment sections of online articles? Because if you ask me, my guess is that the average Apple consumer couldn't care less if the platform is opened up or not.

By consumers I mean the people that vote with their wallets by buying iOS devices.

If it helps you sleep at night, keep thinking it’s a very small minority. It’s really not.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#106

Post by orangeoxidation »

ninjin wrote: post #58
Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

This point of view comes up from time to time and it is and has always been a false choice. What you need is a consensual mechanism to relinquish in part or entirely aspects of your control to Apple in exchange for convenience/security. Think “parental control”, it does not come with the need to shut down a device as a whole, but simply with an interface to bar certain areas off if you so desire. Now, implementing th…

It's not possible to make this a switch the user can turn on or off (with reasonable effort).

Take the alternative app store. If they are allowed you will have some with exclusive apps. Those apps are then outside the apple rules and you have to have to hit the switch if you want them. So you loose out on the app or on all your apps being apple rule / account / payment compatible.

If there is no alternative store you will get all apps the apple way.

Apple is providing a real benefit here. Of course they are also leveraging their semi-monoplostic position to "extort" money and to distort competition.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#107

Post by fblp »

It's important to note that competition law is broader and more broadly enforced than antitrust law in the US. A particularly relevant area for these issues is "Section 46 - Misuse of market power". This is distinct from laws in relation to price fixing, monopolies and merges. The ACCC (and possibly the later, Australian courts) will be trying to answer if Google / Apple are misusing market power as part of this inquiry.

One area that is particularly ripe is "the market for in-app payments". The ACCC would be looking whether it can establish whether under s46: a) does the company have substantial market power? and b) is it engaging in conduct for the purpose, effect or likely effect of substantially lessening competition? More info is available here: https://www.accc.gov.au/business/anti-competitive-behaviour/...

s46 - Misuse of market power was revised for easier enforcement/litigate under in 2017, and you can see a list of active cases include a case from Epic Games vs Apple and Unlockd Ltd v Google (Filed in Australia): https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=34d307e2-1d63... It is a BIG deal for a private company to take action under s46. There used to only be a couple cases every decade.

It is possible that an undertaking or court-order that could emerge out of this inquiry would require Google/Apple to make it easier for apps to accept in-app payments from providers other than Google and Apple in Australia.

As far as I know, the USA does not have an equivalent area of law, and if it does, it certainly is not enforced.

*disclosure: I worked at the ACCC 2008-2011 and these are opinions of my own.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#108

Post by echelon »

gonehome wrote: post #54
Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

I agree - Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I like Apple forcing use of in-app-payments, I like Apple giving me subscription control to make canceling easy. I like Apple blocking app tracking and…

> Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements.

I don't understand this argument at all.

You're almost certainly taking more risk driving in a car than downloading an app, yet you're probably willing to embrace the full degrees of freedom of the roadway.

We shouldn't be afraid to use computers. Security is possible without an app store.

Apologizing for Apple's exploitive system is doing us all a disservice. It's making it harder to do business, launch a startup, use your own device, refurbish your device, and compute freely.

Technology wasn't always a locked-in time share. We're witnessing a hostile takeover. An invented scam, sold to us by the Jobs and Ballmers of the world.

The Apple and Google stores make us serfs in their kingdoms. We're renting, not owning.

Your choices are impinging upon my freedoms. The more people that accept this, the more companies are willing to take.

A Department of Justice breakup is looking like the only solution at this point.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#109

Post by shawnz »

havernator wrote: post #77
encryptluks2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I don't understand the argument Apple users are presenting. Its like they can't comprehend that they can have an option to install third-party apps but they don't have to enable or use that if they like being "protected" from hurting themselves.

Right now, ~100% of the software available for iOS has to follow Apple's rules, offer a consistent and safe payment method, and install through the App Store. I assume you think that would change, else why have other app stores. That's what I don't want. I want as close to 100% of the software for iOS as possible to have to follow the rules. That's part of why I chose iOS.

What if they change their mind about the rules and their vision becomes inconsistent with what you want? You'll have no recourse and vendor lock-in will prevent you from switching platforms

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#110

Post by FpUser »

gonehome wrote: post #54
Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

I agree - Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I like Apple forcing use of in-app-payments, I like Apple giving me subscription control to make canceling easy. I like Apple blocking app tracking and…

>"It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage"

Most likely it is in the interest of majority of consumers conditioned to this type of control. I realize that it is a benefit for older computer illiterate people. It completely sucks for people like myself.

>"10 different game distributors all with their own shitty incentives"

That's one classy way of describing business approach. Yes they're shitty in a way that they're there to help you part with your money and everything else is but a fluff around it. You just forgot to add Apple itself to that group.

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