Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#61

Post by numair » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:09 AM UTC

There is no reason Apple and Google couldn’t set up an App Store Certification framework which would allow trusted third parties to operate their own app stores that were regularly audited and liable for breaches of security.

In fact, this would be far better than the current approach, where these business units are largely unaccountable and hidden behind layers of corporate complexity (which eventually leads to dysfunction, which eventually leads to slower growth). Apple and Google could then spin off their own in-house app stores into independent units, which might even unlock more value for shareholders as these businesses would be likely to be valued at a much higher multiple than the parent.

This would be a way to get regulators and shareholders to work together to achieve the same end result. JPMorgan, Goldman et al would go nuts over the fees for the “AppStore spin out IPO.” Now that I think about it, that would probably be the biggest IPO since Alibaba, or whatever the last “biggest IPO” was.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#62

Post by sneak » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

kaiju0 wrote: post #10

jbverschoor wrote: post #8

Well I love my Apple App Store. It protects me for certain things with payments, and it’s another line of defense against some attacks.

Yep it neatly organizes everything with subscriptions and vetted apps into a single location. Can't ask for more. The only people that want out of it is people who want a bigger rev cut, to bypass app store rules and infect devices.

The bigger problem is the amount of PII they demand from users to install even free apps.

I should be able to install free apps on my device without giving up my name, address, email, phone number, and device serial number. Apple's App Store requires all of these.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#63

Post by encryptluks2 » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

edrxty wrote: post #55

Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

By the same logic we should just eliminate free will because it's dangerous sometimes. I hate these arguments as it is allowing incompetence to drive innovation. There are plenty of other options whereby 3rd party apps/app stores could be installed safely, just like on any other computer system. If you need to give someone with diminished mental faculties a locked down device, that can be made explicit.

Exactly. I don't understand the argument Apple users are presenting. Its like they can't comprehend that they can have an option to install third-party apps but they don't have to enable or use that if they like being "protected" from hurting themselves.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#64

Post by exikyut » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

> "The ACCC has put forward a series of potential measures in response to its findings, including that [...] app developers be allowed to provide consumers with information about alternative payment options [...]"

> "The ACCC is also concerned with restrictions imposed by Apple and Google which mean developers have no choice but to use Apple and Google’s own payment systems for any in-app purchases,” Mr Sims said.

Newsflash: Epic Games relocates operations to Australia

--

> "To address this market power, we believe app developers should have more information about how their apps are made discoverable to consumers and that consumers should have the ability to change or remove any pre-installed or default apps."

> The ACCC has put forward a series of potential measures in response to its findings, including that consumers be able to rate and review all apps, that consumers have the ability to change any pre-installed default app on their device [...]

All RIIIGHT!!! No more unremovable bloatware and background services!

--

All this hopefulness has me wondering if we could successfully explain the benefits of unlocked bootloaders next. :D

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#65

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

jbverschoor wrote: post #8

Well I love my Apple App Store. It protects me for certain things with payments, and it’s another line of defense against some attacks.

Then stick with it? Nobody is killing the app store. Having options doesn't kill anything except maybe Apple and Googles profits.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#66

Post by paranoidrobot » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:11 AM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #9

ent101 wrote: post #6

I feel like we keep getting these inquiries/lawsuits/press releases every year but, literally, nothing gets any better at all. Every developer KNOWS that Google is extremely abusive towards them solely because of their position in the market yet nothing ever improves. If these are not illegal monopolies, what is?!

Well, the problem is that they aren't monopolies. They may be problematic but we don't have laws or regulations to deal with this specific situation. And when we call it a "monopoly" because that seems to be the closest thing then the defenders of these organizations can say "but it's not a monopoly!" and they are right. So if you think it is problematic to have two players in a market even when they are on equal foo…

Whether something's a monopoly depends on context.

If I live in a country with only one phone provider, is that a monopoly? To someone living in that country, yes.

But, I could live in another country, and use another phone provider. See, I have choice, therefore it's not a monopoly, right?

If you buy an Apple device, your only choice for where to get apps from is from Apple's store.

Within that market, they are a monopoly. They control what stores run on that platform, and they choose not to permit competition.

What rationale they use for not permitting alternative stores, what terms they set for apps to be on their platform, those are all different issues.

I can choose not to use Apple's devices, sure, but that doesn't alter that Apple is a monopoly on their own platform.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#67

Post by parasubvert » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:14 AM UTC

edrxty wrote: post #55

Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

By the same logic we should just eliminate free will because it's dangerous sometimes. I hate these arguments as it is allowing incompetence to drive innovation. There are plenty of other options whereby 3rd party apps/app stores could be installed safely, just like on any other computer system. If you need to give someone with diminished mental faculties a locked down device, that can be made explicit.

It’s not incompetence or “reduced mental faculties”, or even removing free will.

It’s that we don’t want iOS to be like any other computer system - the simplicity and lack of choice is a feature, not a bug.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#68

Post by ptcampbell » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:14 AM UTC

dlgeek wrote: post #5

> The ACCC has put forward a series of potential measures in response to its findings, including that consumers be able to rate and review all apps, that consumers have the ability to change any pre-installed default app on their device, that app developers be allowed to provide consumers with information about alternative payment options and that information collected by Apple and Google in their capacity as app mar…

I live in the US now but miss having an avenue to pursue if unjustly treated as a consumer. A watchdog with a modicum of actual power is a good thing. A small example: at one point it felt as though mere mention of the ombudsman was enough to sway dodgy phone carriers to acquiesce on minor matters such as billing, misleading advertising etc.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#69

Post by edrxty » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

numair wrote: post #61

There is no reason Apple and Google couldn’t set up an App Store Certification framework which would allow trusted third parties to operate their own app stores that were regularly audited and liable for breaches of security. In fact, this would be far better than the current approach, where these business units are largely unaccountable and hidden behind layers of corporate complexity (which eventually leads to dysf…

By implying a mandate for auditing and liability, there's no reason to use any terms other than the terms they already attach to the existing app stores. It would just be more of the same policies, just enforced even more arbitrarily as people shop around for which store will erroneously publish their app if the main Apple/Google one doesn't

Apple isn't going to magically endorse the "Code execution, Piracy, and Porn App Showroom".

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#70

Post by simondotau » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

This report is somewhat bipolar. On one hand it's arguing that Google and Apple exert too much control over smartphone app marketplaces.

On the other hand its proposed remedy asks that Google and Apple exert even more control over these app marketplaces by stamping down on anti-consumer practices like subscription traps and scams.

On the other other hand it proposes that Apple and Google should allow third party payment options, making it harder for Google and Apple to thwart subscription traps and scams.