Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#121

Post by hugi » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:57 AM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #109

havernator wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, ~100% of the software available for iOS has to follow Apple's rules, offer a consistent and safe payment method, and install through the App Store. I assume you think that would change, else why have other app stores. That's what I don't want. I want as close to 100% of the software for iOS as possible to have to follow the rules. That's part of why I chose iOS.

What if they change their mind about the rules and their vision becomes inconsistent with what you want? You'll have no recourse and vendor lock-in will prevent you from switching platforms

Wat? No. I'd buy another phone. There's plenty of choices.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#122

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:57 AM UTC

FpUser wrote: post #110

gonehome wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I like Apple forcing use of in-app-payments, I like Apple giving me subscription control to make canceling easy. I like Apple blocking app tracking and…

>"It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage" Most likely it is in the interest of majority of consumers conditioned to this type of control. I realize that it is a benefit for older computer illiterate people. It completely sucks for people like myself. >"10 different game distributors all with their own shitty incentives" That's one classy way of describing business approach. Yes they're…

For people like yourself, there is Android and there is jailbreaking. But I suspect most people do not actually desire complete control over their phones more than they desire a curated experience.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#123

Post by meepmorp » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:57 AM UTC

edrxty wrote: post #74

parasubvert wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not incompetence or “reduced mental faculties”, or even removing free will. It’s that we don’t want iOS to be like any other computer system - the simplicity and lack of choice is a feature, not a bug.

Some people need more functionality than iOS and its associated apps provide to do their jobs (ie embedded development/testing) among other things. Sure, "just go to Android/whatever" but Apple is quickly gaining a monopoly on not-shitty hardware and the combination of these two things is not ok by any stretch of the imagination. Apple could provide the option of unlocking the bootloader and providing some driver cod…

> Apple is quickly gaining a monopoly on not-shitty hardware

By "quickly gaining a monopoly", do you mean they've somehow made it impossible for another multi-billion dollar company to do a decent job on designing and building a phone?

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#124

Post by simondotau » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:58 AM UTC

fblp wrote: post #81

simondotau wrote: post #70

This report is somewhat bipolar. On one hand it's arguing that Google and Apple exert too much control over smartphone app marketplaces. On the other hand its proposed remedy asks that Google and Apple exert even more control over these app marketplaces by stamping down on anti-consumer practices like subscription traps and scams. On the other other hand it proposes that Apple and Google should allow third party paym…

This is an interim report. It's okay for it to be proposing multiple directions that benefit consumers and competition.

It is okay to propose multiple directions if they benefit consumers and competition. This isn't what they did. They proposed one direction that benefits consumers at the expense of competition[1], and another direction which benefits competition at the expense of the consumer[2].

[1] Calling on Google and Apple to further clamp down on subscription traps and scams;

[2] Calling on Google and Apple to give up control over the mechanisms which have allowed them to clamp down on malicious financial activity including some (but not all) subscription traps and scams.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#125

Post by havernator » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:59 AM UTC

edrxty wrote: post #112

havernator wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then choose something else? I mean, lobby for the change if you like, but you're eliminating my favored choice if you succeed.

We can both have our cake and eat it too, we just need either an unlocked bootloader, or the ability to sideload apps over an ADB-like usb interface. People who don't want that functionality will never know it's there and there won't be any decrease in security.

Unlocked boot loader would be fine. Sideloading's fine as long as the UI's bad enough that normal people can't, say, click a link on a website and keep clicking "OK" until the app's installed on their phone, and it also can't (somehow? Not sure how this restriction would be enforced) be scripted into a desktop-based store (as ADB could be, and likely would have been if alternative stores couldn't just be installed directly on Android devices).

Essentially as long as nothing threatens Apple's ability to tell other companies, including other tech giants, to play ball or pound sand, I'm fine with it.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#126

Post by gonehome » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 2:59 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #118

gonehome wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I like Apple forcing use of in-app-payments, I like Apple giving me subscription control to make canceling easy. I like Apple blocking app tracking and…

Subscription services like Spotify only pay 30% for the first year of each subscription. After that they pay 15% and this has been the case since 2016. Apple has done a lot to revise the App Store charging policy over the last few years, and I think they deserve credit for that. Also their hosting of free apps for only a nominal developer registration fee is a huge boon to users and a lot of iOS developers. So I don’…

> "Subscription services like Spotify only pay 30% for the first year of each subscription. After that they pay 15%."

That's still pretty extreme imo when you control the only store and you directly compete with them/undercut them.

> "Also their hosting of free apps for only a nominal developer registration fee is a huge boon to users and a lot of iOS developers."

They charge a fee for it, I wouldn't consider it nominal - the ecosystem of apps also obviously benefits apple.

---

I'm a huge Apple fan which is why I find this racket irritating, it worries me that it'll blow up in their face and we'll end up worse off.

I'd probably charge a (low) flat annual fee for app store distribution and that's it. Apple should be focused on making money with great products, not taxing devs they force through their channel.

Keep the rules, lose the tax.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#127

Post by m4rtink » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

hugi wrote: post #35

diogenesjunior wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm happy to use an iPhone, knowing my personal information is safe and it reduces my chances of being Harvested by Google LOL. Instead of bowing down to one master, you chose to bow down to the other?

I choose to spend my money on devices from a company that's explicitly and repeatedly stated that their mission is privacy. But if you choose to buy phones from ad companies, it's your decision.

Unless the device runs open source software under your full control you can't trust any company behind it.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#128

Post by simondotau » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

asdfaoeu wrote: post #75

simondotau wrote: post #70

This report is somewhat bipolar. On one hand it's arguing that Google and Apple exert too much control over smartphone app marketplaces. On the other hand its proposed remedy asks that Google and Apple exert even more control over these app marketplaces by stamping down on anti-consumer practices like subscription traps and scams. On the other other hand it proposes that Apple and Google should allow third party paym…

I think the general argument is that the stores are not competitive and providing a low value service (having scams and subscription traps) while collecting a large amount of proceeds from developers.

But the stores clearly do make it more difficult for developers to engage in scams and subscription traps. I strongly support increased pressure on Google and Apple to do a lot more in this regard (especially with certain kinds of pay-to-avoid-grinding games) but it's wrong to speak about this as though it was a binary state.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#129

Post by AnthonyMouse » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

orangeoxidation wrote: post #106

ninjin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This point of view comes up from time to time and it is and has always been a false choice. What you need is a consensual mechanism to relinquish in part or entirely aspects of your control to Apple in exchange for convenience/security. Think “parental control”, it does not come with the need to shut down a device as a whole, but simply with an interface to bar certain areas off if you so desire. Now, implementing th…

It's not possible to make this a switch the user can turn on or off (with reasonable effort). Take the alternative app store. If they are allowed you will have some with exclusive apps. Those apps are then outside the apple rules and you have to have to hit the switch if you want them. So you loose out on the app or on all your apps being apple rule / account / payment compatible. If there is no alternative store you…

> Take the alternative app store. If they are allowed you will have some with exclusive apps. Those apps are then outside the apple rules and you have to have to hit the switch if you want them. So you loose out on the app or on all your apps being apple rule / account / payment compatible.

But how is this different than Android? There could be apps exclusive to Android, presumably there are. If you want them you have to choose Android. All the people who only trust Apple can't have them, the same as all the people who would refuse to turn the switch.

And even if some of the people who currently have iOS devices would turn the switch, the people who wouldn't are still a huge market. Unless they're not. But in that case what you're really saying is that people don't actually want the Apple-controlled market and most people are only buying iOS devices in spite of rather than because of it.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#130

Post by SilverRed » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 3:02 AM UTC

subroutine wrote: post #72

SilverRed wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who want a bigger rev cut This is not unreasonable. Apps like netfix and spotify can not possibly pay the Apple cut and stay competitive with apples own services which pay nothing. Not a single user is going to pay 30% extra to listen to the same music.

Do netflix and spotify currently pay apple 30%?

When you install the app they throw you on a screen that says "You can't continue via the app. Yes, we know it sucks"

They aren't allowed to tell you how to subscribe, they can just say you must and it can't be done in the app. While on Apples own services, it just uses your already filled payment details.