My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community • Hacker News Board

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#321

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

throway98752343 wrote: post #293

epicureanideal wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof. What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?

If a bunch of people who once had close, perhaps even loving relationships with you all come forward and risk their own reputation to say you're bad enough to warrant criminal action, I'd say it's on you to prove them wrong. Or maybe it's all a grand conspiracy, in which case let's follow the money and see that it leads... nowhere.

[deleted]

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#322

Post by dmit » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #285

dmit wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you gave consent because you were drunk, that's not really rape, it could be poor judgment. No, it's lack of judgement. Total inability to judge, in fact. > The perpetrator might reasonably think you're sober enough to make your own decisions. Especially if they are also inebriated. It doesn't matter what the perpetrator thinks. And especially ? Is the perpetrator less guilty of rape depending on his blood alcoh…

> It doesn't matter what the perpetrator thinks. I think it may be the only thing that can decide the difference between a crime here or not. If the other person gives consent, then how you judge their ability to make their own decisions here is the difference between having intent to rape or not having intent. Intent matters in a lot of crimes, I don't think it matters in rape cases - I could be wrong. > Is the perp…

> So the victim has no responsibility if blood alcohol level is too high for good judgment, but the perpetrator is responsible no matter their blood alcohol level and judgment?

Exactly. That's why they're called 'victim' and 'perpetrator'.

If the victim got triple blackout drunk, the only person they'd hurt is themselves. But the rapist, in addition to physical damage, inflicts deep, lasting psychological damage upon their victims. It's not just "regret".

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#323

Post by UncleMeat » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #176

UncleMeat wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are people supposed to do then. If your friend sees somebody at the store and says “that guy is an asshole, he used to beat me up in middle school” do you respond “wait I can’t develop any opinion of that person without a trial”?

Of course not, but that's because I know my friend personally. If I saw someone putting up posters outside my apartment complex saying "the guy in Unit 214 is an asshole, he used to beat me up in middle school", I wouldn't spread the accusation without knowing more about what's going on.

Even if you had multiple other people corroborate it?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#324

Post by endominus » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:27 PM UTC

solosoyokaze wrote: post #179

epicureanideal wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to sue someone for slander doesn't actually say anything. There's a lot of factors. How much will it cost? How much publicity will it generate and is that worse than just letting it go? What is the standard of proof that must be met and are they confident they can prove that it's a false statement? What are the consequences if they somehow fail to meet that burden? Etc. Also, how did the left become the pa…

So are you saying that victims must win a court case to have their story believed but perpetrators should be taken at their word? If someone wants to clear their name, go to court and sue for slander. If it's two people's word against each other, I'll believe the victim every time since there's such a high cost of coming forward and slander laws exist. EDIT Since I'm now throttled... I'm saying that coming forward ei…

So are you saying that victims (of slander) must win a court case to have their story believed but perpetrators (of slander) should be taken at their word?

The sword cuts both ways.

Except it doesn't, because if you're in the news for {serious crime} and later clear your name, your reputation is still probably trashed. There is no real mechanism for recovery in the modern panopticon. Lowering standards of evidence required for conviction (to basically nothing, if some people are taken seriously) is such a kludgy, cumbersome hack to solve this problem that it shocks me that people present it seriously. It's utopian thinking.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#325

Post by bcrosby95 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:27 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #16

merb wrote: post #9

first, a small rant: tbf. I dislike the title. the real title is sexual harassment from Jon Pretty a leader of certain Scala Community standups. because the current title actually sounds like it's the whole commnity, but the blog is about a specific guy. --- second I really do not understand, how other people can be so horrible. he basically abused her in a moment where she was really really desperate and I think suc…

> In June, Heather noticed that I was upset at a dinner after ScalaDays. I shared with her about what happened. She warned me to stay away from Jon Pretty. And she wasn’t the only person who told me that. Even though my experience in Berlin was awful, it was difficult for me to accept that someone, who seemed like a good friend, mentor, and ally, could be so selfish, manipulative, and cruel. It sounds like people kne…

It's a bit vague. I'm not involved in the Scala community and if someone told me a story like that about someone in it I would also tell them to stay away from them.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#326

Post by voces » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

Since the pattern is so similar, I now recognize this as a form of harmful #metoo activism.

- Attack entire community, not individuals

- Court of Public Social Justice

- The charges amount to unwanted advances being made during a social interaction where that would be acceptable -- not sexual harassment, nor illegal behavior.

Compare https://medium.com/@kristianlum/statistics-we-have-a-problem...

Make the problem about an entire industry: Holywood, Scala, MIT, Statistics. Garantuee public shaming and punishment for your target, by calling out criticism or disbelief as "victim shaming", people calling for you to lose your job, because they got angry reading a Medium post, not because you've been proven guilty by someone without a bias. Ending up in an apartment with someone in another country, drinking wine, but not remembering how much you drank, but you do remember that he did not drink anything (to play up him taking advantage over you), then crying and feeling upset, because someone makes an advance towards you, instead of feeling flattered and politely declining. Going skinny dipping at night in the sea with a bunch of clumsy rowdy tipsy researchers, then blaming an advance someone makes, on conference culture.

Go to the police, get your day in court, and let justice prevail. Not going to join a mob, because someone made you cry once. Even giving the experience sympathy would needlessly rile me up. I'd like to think about other negative things when interacting with Scala and its community, preferably technical.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#327

Post by suifbwish » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

nawgz wrote: post #276

epicureanideal wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same article notes that between 2-8% of rape complaints are false. Worries about false rape claims are wildly overblown. That is a HUGE percent of false accusations! On the high end that's 1 in 10! In the middle, it's 1 in 20. That's a LOT.

Yet you express no concern at the amount of unprosecuted cases...

The cases would be prosecuted if there was evidence to support them. You can’t just punish people without proof. Contrary to popular belief the purpose of the legal system is not to make wronged people feel better.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#328

Post by Pfhreak » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

jnwatson wrote: post #203

_qwfv wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been in an abusive relationship? Or seen one firsthand? People can be made to believe all sorts of things that aren't true by charismatic or powerful people. It may take them some time to realize they are being tricked or abused. You absolutely can be told you consented, and trust that person's word, and realize later that no, actually you had not. It's just convenient for the abuser for you to believe…

The same argument can be made the other direction. It is quite common for someone to be convinced after the fact it was nonconsensual when it was indeed consensual.

I'm sure it happens, I strongly doubt it's "quite common". Especially relative to the incidence of it happening the other way (where an victim escapes and abuser and realizes they were being abused.)

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#329

Post by hamburglar » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

dbg31415 wrote: post #288

js2 wrote: post #113

Yes, of course she should have contacted law enforcement, but she was in a foreign country, intimated and young. And law enforcement still fails women: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/how-po... In an ideal world, the criminal justice system works. In the real world, it's a patchwork system that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2019/09/17...…

It's not that I don't believe her. It's just such a slippery slope. This is vigilantism -- the same as if you went out and shot a guy who stole your wallet. We don't trust victims of crimes to dole out punishments. Justice is tempered by due process, checks and balances, proportional response, all that. So I believe her, but I don't think the world is a better place when people use this approach to conflict resolutio…

It seems that this may be the only consequence of raping someone in many cases.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#330

Post by bitwize » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #131

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

The problem is that only a tiny percentage of harassers and rapists are ever convicted. The court -- rightly -- sets a very high bar to conviction, and police and prosecutors often won't even attempt it unless the evidence is overwhelming. You're concerned that this is stacked against you, but the courts are stacked against the victims. So it doesn't really suffice to decry the one problem without addressing the othe…

> The court -- rightly -- sets a very high bar to conviction

Rape convictions are so abysmally low that there's been a lot of rethinking in feminist circles as to whether the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard -- or even the presumption of innocence -- is fair or just. Some countries have been looking for ways to ameliorate this. For example, in thr USA, college date rape is such a problem that universities are required to investigate accusations of sexual harassment or assault and discipline offenders based on the looser preponderance standard, or be found in violation of Title IX by the federal Department of Education.