My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community • Hacker News Board

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#291

Post by suifbwish » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

nawgz wrote: post #267

Fern_Blossom wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation. >And there is also a chance that we can hit a critical mass where law enforcement somewhere may take an interest after all. Don't complain…

There are plenty of stories of law enforcement ignoring, downplaying, and even harassing victims of sexual crimes who try to report it. Please do not act like the police are a high trust authority who act only in good faith - we have overwhelmingly seen the other side of that in these past years.

There are also plenty of stories of the legal system working as intended. You can create any narrative you want from selectively paying attention to data.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#292

Post by tomp » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

PascLeRasc wrote: post #211

JPKab wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost was hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the company would have fought it for about 3 years, based on the advice of the wrongful termination specialist he consulted. He would have been bankrupted, and did what most people do, and just moved on.

So now you see why most women who are sexually assaulted don't report it. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

Can you explain the reasoning a bit more? JPKab's argument is that the estimated costs were $100k+. In my uneducated eyes, the estimated cost of reporting a crime is 30 minutes trip to the police station and filling some report / talking to someone, maybe 2 hours of your time? Essentially trivial.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#293

Post by throway98752343 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #256

swyx wrote: post #20

similar stories are emerging: - https://killnicole.github.io/statement/ (edit i see she has added it to the article itself) - https://twitter.com/brianclapper/status/1387115214064193537?... - https://twitter.com/adelbertchang/status/1387090351626723329... there seems to be some coordination here, as this came out pretty much at the same time. https://typelevel.org/blog/2021/04/27/community-safety.html Yifan also link…

Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof. What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?

If a bunch of people who once had close, perhaps even loving relationships with you all come forward and risk their own reputation to say you're bad enough to warrant criminal action, I'd say it's on you to prove them wrong.

Or maybe it's all a grand conspiracy, in which case let's follow the money and see that it leads... nowhere.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#294

Post by Pfhreak » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

mirekrusin wrote: post #190

_qwfv wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some people will pause before judging definite rape for described situation where girl accepts invitation to sleep in the same airbnb, without anybody else, with single guy, bringing bottle of wine, None of those things even remotely imply consent for a sexual advance. Those are all things that should be fine for anyone of any gender to do together without there being fear of a sexual assault. Anyone who looks at t…

My point is that she doesn't mention she didn't want it, said "no" or anything that implies not giving consent.

She says that he 'insisted'. Typically someone 'insisting' on something implies an initial 'no'.

And furthermore, "not saying no" is not the bar for consent. An enthusiastic, unambiguous yes is the bar for consent. Not giving consent is the default, assumed position until that yes arrives.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#295

Post by eloff » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

faitswulff wrote: post #242

totony wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's what the parent meant. If someone is intoxicated, I agree that it seems weird to disregard their consent when drugs+alcohols are the social lubricant of society (and very interwined with sex). Also, of course you are responsible for your actions even when under the influence (drive and kill someone? no excuse because you were intoxicated - it's your fault). It's crazy to me that people call that…

Someone being assaulted when they’re intoxicated is not equivalent to someone knowingly driving a car when they’re drunk. The sexual predator consciously chooses to assault their victim; the car doesn’t choose to crash. EDIT - a lot of you seem to think that this is equivalent to a DUI. It is not. If you are driving under the influence, then you are the perpetrator of the accident. If you are drunk and somebody else…

Cars don't choose, the driver does. The driver is always responsible, regardless of state of inebriation.

There's a very big distinction to be made here between an assault and if the person gives consent - or sometimes could even be the initiator. Again, to be very clear, I'm not saying that was the case here.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#296

Post by JPKab » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

knodi123 wrote: post #212

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

The redress for a false accusation that results in serious harm to your career is a slander lawsuit. Sounds like all the ducks are in a row, evidence wise, so just figure out how much damage she caused, and sue her for it. I know it's not quite the same, and an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure- but there's this narrative that a person who is falsely accused is utterly powerless before the power of a…

My brother was suicidal at one time due to the accusations, and more importantly, the fact that everyone immediately believed them. When his wife got the idea to call the daycare and ask if they had video footage, he thought for sure he'd be saved. (His employer also had his company cell phone location data which further corroborated his alibi). He literally proved himself innocent to his HR department. But if you've ever been involved on the inside in one of these situations, once HR has initiated a termination, they end up introducing additional liability if they halt the termination (effectively admitting they were in the wrong).

He certainly COULD have sued for slander, but the cost of the lawsuit and retaining a lawyer, and for him, the emotional toll, was too high.

And I completely understand that there is a huge toll for accusers as well.

I think, depending on the venue, that the process can be very traumatic for accusers with real claims, and also accused who are targeted by false accusations. The colleague who accused him was a woman who his coworkers had warned him "not to cross" because she was "a total sociopath" according to his other team members. One of them even told him "you should have listened to me" after he was terminated.

It's interesting how poorly most coders understand the realities of human nature. People aren't devils, but they aren't angels either.

I just really resent the fact that any attempt at injecting nuance into these kinds of conversations brings out attacks from the un-nuanced, tribalists who reduce everything down to bumper sticker slogans and identity groups. It's disgusting and reminds me of the sectarian conflicts I've witnessed in other nations.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#297

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

[deleted]

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#298

Post by cmsj » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

ALittleLight wrote: post #163

_qwfv wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been in an abusive relationship? Or seen one firsthand? People can be made to believe all sorts of things that aren't true by charismatic or powerful people. It may take them some time to realize they are being tricked or abused. You absolutely can be told you consented, and trust that person's word, and realize later that no, actually you had not. It's just convenient for the abuser for you to believe…

Maybe that's true and some Rasputin-like figure could manipulate you into believing you thought things that you didn't, but that doesn't seem to be what is alleged here. She wasn't living in this guy's cult, he helped her professionally and with conferences, and she agreed to share a room with him on a trip. That strikes me as less mind-control and more just a situation that people get into sometimes. She is and was…

I think you underestimate how skilled abusers can be at emotional manipulation.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#299

Post by Ankintol » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #220

Ankintol wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason Having supported a few friends trying to push these kinds of complaints through the courts, I think the precise reason this kind of naming and shaming has become so common place is the criminal justice system isn't working well. Even for fairly straightforward sexual assault case in a liberal jurisdiction with witnesses I've watched a friend struggle with me…

Can you please provide proof that our justice system is failing victims? Do you just mean that the conviction rate is anything less than 100% for accusations? Also, can you clarify what you mean by "verbally insulting and degrading them"? It's possible you just mean the lawyer is accusing them of lying... which is what you do when you think a person is lying. The accused does have a presumption of innocence, and the…

> Can you please provide proof that our justice system is failing victims? Do you just mean that the conviction rate is anything less than 100% for accusations?

I'm confused that you think this is something I can prove through citations. The way we adjudicate whether someone is a victim is through the courts, my claim is the courts do a bad job of this. There are only two things I can think to poinnt you at:

1. The numerous written accounts online of women attempting to get justice and being stonewalled. Some of the more famous cases during the beginning of the #metoo era showed this.

2. I can say that the lived experience of every woman I know to have gone through the courts found it unnecessarily degrading (n~=20) and while I believe all of them, only a quarter (n~=5) received a guilty verdict. I know far more women who did not go through the process due to stories from women they know.

I'm personally convinced, if you're not I understand but am not ready to expend the energy digging up cases to try and convince you.

> can you clarify what you mean by "verbally insulting and degrading them"

Literal slurs, misogynistic generalizations about women being temptresses, stereotypically horrible questions such as "were you asking for it?"

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#300

Post by DaveExeter » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #131

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

The problem is that only a tiny percentage of harassers and rapists are ever convicted. The court -- rightly -- sets a very high bar to conviction, and police and prosecutors often won't even attempt it unless the evidence is overwhelming. You're concerned that this is stacked against you, but the courts are stacked against the victims. So it doesn't really suffice to decry the one problem without addressing the othe…

> The court -- rightly -- sets a very high bar to conviction, and police and prosecutors often won't even attempt it unless the evidence is overwhelming.

Huh? Have you ever heard of the Central Park Five? Google "Central Park Five" and you'll have a more enlightened view!