My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community • Hacker News Board

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#211

Post by PascLeRasc » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #200

baryphonic wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like your brother believed in something and sacrificed everything. If I were him, I might hire an employment lawyer and sue the shit out of them. Ya know, "Just do it."

The cost was hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the company would have fought it for about 3 years, based on the advice of the wrongful termination specialist he consulted. He would have been bankrupted, and did what most people do, and just moved on.

So now you see why most women who are sexually assaulted don't report it.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#212

Post by knodi123 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

The redress for a false accusation that results in serious harm to your career is a slander lawsuit. Sounds like all the ducks are in a row, evidence wise, so just figure out how much damage she caused, and sue her for it.

I know it's not quite the same, and an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure- but there's this narrative that a person who is falsely accused is utterly powerless before the power of any angry woman willing to yell "perv", and that's just false.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#213

Post by jnwatson » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

willeh wrote: post #198

This may be a tone-deaf sidetrack but also perhaps an important piece of advice for some. There should be an impenetrable barrier between ones love life and ones professional life. While there are certainly people who have met their significant other in a professional setting, there are much better ways of doing that, especially nowadays. By striving to keep this separation water tight we can avoid both unwanted adva…

That's simply unrealistic and unhelpful.

That the author met this person in a professional setting is beside the point. It would be just as serious if it happened at a hobby event.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#214

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

swyx wrote: post #20

similar stories are emerging: - https://killnicole.github.io/statement/ (edit i see she has added it to the article itself) - https://twitter.com/brianclapper/status/1387115214064193537?... - https://twitter.com/adelbertchang/status/1387090351626723329... there seems to be some coordination here, as this came out pretty much at the same time. https://typelevel.org/blog/2021/04/27/community-safety.html Yifan also link…

[deleted]

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#215

Post by DonHopkins » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #200

baryphonic wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like your brother believed in something and sacrificed everything. If I were him, I might hire an employment lawyer and sue the shit out of them. Ya know, "Just do it."

The cost was hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the company would have fought it for about 3 years, based on the advice of the wrongful termination specialist he consulted. He would have been bankrupted, and did what most people do, and just moved on.

So they swooshed it under the rug, and you don't want to air max facts about the case in public?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#216

Post by eloff » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

claudiawerner wrote: post #110

eloff wrote: post #36

> I don’t remember how much I drank. I don’t remember him drinking. But I remember feeling uncomfortable when he made advances on me. I felt being taken advantage of that he had unprotected sex with me when I was intoxicated. Nothing felt right. I remember panicking and crying. I don't want to victim blame here because this guy sounds like a grade A creep and predator. But does a person not have some responsibility h…

>I don't want to victim blame here because this guy sounds like a grade A creep and predator. But does a person not have some responsibility here to not get so intoxicated when alone with a member of the opposite sex in a private space? No. The idea that being around a member of the opposite sex (and does this apply to members of the same sex? e.g. men raping men, and women raping women?) in a private space while bei…

> No. The idea that being around a member of the opposite sex (and does this apply to members of the same sex? e.g. men raping men, and women raping women?)

I specifically used the word person because I think this could happen between any two people of any sex. I'm certain it even happens to men, by women. Just men are much less likely to regret it the next day.

> levies some kind of 'responsibility' to be on the lookout for rape is absolutely victim blaming

If you gave consent because you were drunk, that's not really rape, it could be poor judgment. The perpetrator might reasonably think you're sober enough to make your own decisions. Especially if they are also inebriated.

Just calling it victim blaming is missing that this is a pretty gray area.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#217

Post by pydry » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #124

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

I only kind of agree. In this case a Chinese woman living in the USA apparently got raped in Germany 3 years ago. To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report? I hate the court…

>What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report?

If it's anything like the UK (and I suspect it is), they'll likely take it seriously. For example, see the police's reaction here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/mt1kw4/withd...

If she got robbed, on the other hand, or she reported something like this ten years ago, they'd probably say "meh we are busy, here's your crime reference number now go away".

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#218

Post by nicklecompte » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #183

nicklecompte wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine a letter like this targeted at you one day, except unlike Mr. Pretty, you are innocent. “Imagine that you were convicted of murder but, unlike John Wayne Gacy, you were innocent.” Seriously what is the point of comments like this? False convictions are real and very very bad, but I know very few social justice advocates who are opposed to locking up serial killers. Likewise, the existence of unscrupulous pe…

I think there’s a crucial point that you missed: “...there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason” John Wayne Gacy was convicted in a court via the criminal justice system. As a society, we have chosen this as our mechanism for adjudicating these types of accusations, and that mechanism has evolved certain safeguards over time. It’s not perfect, but it is a far fairer venue to be tried in than the “court…

No, because Gacy was accused of things that were actually illegal, whereas much of what Pretty was accused of is clearly not illegal, just shitty. So, as I said in my comment and hardly “glossed over,” the court of public opinion (and the possibility of social / professional sanction) are entirely appropriate!

This idea that individuals aren’t allowed to publicly criticize the actions of public figures, or report on their own experiences with public figures, is so painfully stupid that I find it astonishing that you are arguing in good faith. This is not something you would actually believe in other contexts (say, if a CEO is accused of verbal abuse).

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#219

Post by baryphonic » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #200

baryphonic wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like your brother believed in something and sacrificed everything. If I were him, I might hire an employment lawyer and sue the shit out of them. Ya know, "Just do it."

The cost was hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the company would have fought it for about 3 years, based on the advice of the wrongful termination specialist he consulted. He would have been bankrupted, and did what most people do, and just moved on.

That's awful. Even more reason for me to despise That Company.

My father managed a mom & pop shoe store in the 80s. That Company got its start distributing through small local shoe stores, and as soon as they started making big bucks, began treating the local stores like garbage. Throughout my childhood, we were banned from buying or wearing their, as you accurately put it, overpriced, low quality crap.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#220

Post by epicureanideal » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

Ankintol wrote: post #170

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

> there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason Having supported a few friends trying to push these kinds of complaints through the courts, I think the precise reason this kind of naming and shaming has become so common place is the criminal justice system isn't working well. Even for fairly straightforward sexual assault case in a liberal jurisdiction with witnesses I've watched a friend struggle with me…

Can you please provide proof that our justice system is failing victims? Do you just mean that the conviction rate is anything less than 100% for accusations?

Also, can you clarify what you mean by "verbally insulting and degrading them"? It's possible you just mean the lawyer is accusing them of lying... which is what you do when you think a person is lying. The accused does have a presumption of innocence, and the accuser may need to be cross examined under some reasonable amount of emotional stress to see if their behavior under stress reveals that they are lying. There's not really any way around this other than "well, we'll just assume they're telling the truth and anyone they accuse is guilty" which is a far worse solution in my opinion.