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‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

theguardian.com

291–300 of 339 posts

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#291
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar shingles have been on the market from several companies for many years. They have never really taken off since they are a lot more expensive and have worse performance than regular solar panels.

You say "they are" as if this still is the case. Do you mean that installing Tesla shingles give a lower ROI than installing normal shingles and solar panels on top of them? I can not imagine so. I don't know any other industry where this type of "combine two products" is the better approach. In theory, a single system should always give a better ROI than combining two systems that are not made to be combined in the…

Tesla's solar roof is more comparable to expensive slate tiles then the standard tar shingles. Here is an analysis that finds tesla's solar roof is significantly more expensive than a new roof + a traditional solar installation.

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/tesla-solar-roof-do-the-so...

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#292
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any serious free market advocate thinks the government doesn't have a place in restricting and producing negative and positive externalities, respectively. A free market generally means one where one's control over their person and private property is not restricted as long as that control is not being exercised to violate other's equal right to their person and private property, and to the commons . Bu…

Maybe technically, in the sense that there has to be some sort of overarching enforcement and regulation to have a market. But the major advantage that the free market has is that it is much better than the government at assessing the relative size of positive and negative externalities. The government consistently underestimates the positive externalities of free market activity. Much like in this case - the people…

>Maybe technically, in the sense that there has to be some sort of overarching enforcement and regulation to have a market.

Actually, you got it exactly backwards, having a free market in the first place is a political choice the government makes. All of this is merely a fiction in our head, without that fiction we are back to the "Law of the jungle". Everything you can take and protect is yours, which is completely at odds with the idea of a free market.

>But the major advantage that the free market has is that it is much better than the government at assessing the relative size of positive and negative externalities.

The free market is the ultimate henchman of the government, it will optimize for the legislated outcome down to every single letter and squeeze every ounce of efficiency available. If the political context allows it, it will happen. If negative externalities are not balanced out via fees, this is equivalent to the government telling every entity in the economy to abuse the externality.

>The government consistently underestimates the positive externalities of free market activity.

No, it underestimates how reliable its henchman is and for some reason it doesn't know how to talk to the henchman even though it's the most natural thing in the world.

>Much like in this case - the people advocating that the government subsidise solar power and commit early have all been shown to have badly misjudged the situation.

Subsidizing solar power is wrong, for obvious reasons. The goal isn't solar power, the goal is the reduction of CO2 emissions and if possible, the reduction of the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere. This requires a stronger cap and trade system or a CO2 price, in theory these are equivalent, in practice the former is prone to too much meddling.

>The free market is much better at getting clean power to people than they thought.

What we need is less government "intervention" and more government activity in the market as the ultimate investor, let the henchman do the actual work.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moscow is larger than Paris or London. Madrid is 5-6 million. Saint Petersburg, Barcelona and Berlin are over five million. None of those are small by Asian standards. (to claim Paris is a large city by Asian standards, you must be going by the metropolitan area population) The Los Angeles metro area is also one of the largest in the world. It is very obviously a city by the same standards that define sprawling Asian…

Russia is Russia. I don’t count it as European though people do. I live in Berlin and it is small (also it’s only 3.6m people metro area). LA is all metro area with no city which is why I don’t think of it as a city. It doesn’t have the density. Measuring Paris’ population by city proper makes no sense at all. Having spent considerable time in all 3 continents and many of the cities mentioned I think there is a signi…

Doesn’t really matter whether you do or not, it’s in Europe.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#294
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is never any skepticism about the technology, the safety, the long term impact (as you would have if someone was setting up a nuclear or gas power plant). They simply “get it” This is also a bad thing, because there are some real issues with PV panels too: leaking toxic materials, recycling problems, environmental side-effects because you need to mine for rare earths and critical metals, etc. It's far from be…

Correction: Crystalline silicon solar cells, the most popular type today, require no rare earths. The most expensive and rare element in them is silver - used for the reflective layer underneath.

yes, if you don't count in the inverter and charger controller units and the batteries used as part of a common setup... I've got a degree in electrical engineering, but as I've said, I really don't feel competent enough to go into any discussion on a degree of actual threat, if any, as looking into all the side-effects of some tech is really complex task far above my pay grade and it's super easy to overlook something and jump to wrong conclusions. I just wanted to point out that this popular black & white bias between solar and nuclear is not as simple as people think of it.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is never any skepticism about the technology, the safety, the long term impact (as you would have if someone was setting up a nuclear or gas power plant). They simply “get it” This is also a bad thing, because there are some real issues with PV panels too: leaking toxic materials, recycling problems, environmental side-effects because you need to mine for rare earths and critical metals, etc. It's far from be…

> leaking toxic materials What toxic materials?

Mostly the impurities coming from contacts and support materials, according to [1] primarily As, Cd, Hg, Se,Pb, Zn, Co, Ni, Mo, Cu, Cr, Sb.

"In the course of the work, it was found that the toxicity indices of the EVA and Tedlar® components increase with prolonged exposure to materials in aqueous solution, approaching values characterizing an unsafe degree of toxicity to the environment and human health."

[1] https://www.e3s-conferences.org/articles/e3sconf/pdf/2020/21...

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#296
post #230
post #6

One of the best things about this tech is how effective it is at domestic scale. My small roof in London generated 26kWh of electricity today. About 3X what we consumed. https://twitter.com/edent_solar

>About £8,000 from Sims Solar. T I wonder how much would it cost now? So that means I could, theoretically move to a remote or desert location, somehow install a solar panel myself, set a Starlink Internet, and live happily ever after? Assuming I could somehow grow potatoes in a small green house. Edit: Missing Drinking Water and Sewage treatment.

[deleted]

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#297
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is Russia. I don’t count it as European though people do. I live in Berlin and it is small (also it’s only 3.6m people metro area). LA is all metro area with no city which is why I don’t think of it as a city. It doesn’t have the density. Measuring Paris’ population by city proper makes no sense at all. Having spent considerable time in all 3 continents and many of the cities mentioned I think there is a signi…

Doesn’t really matter whether you do or not, it’s in Europe.

Ok 3 cities. Russia is in Europe like Turkey is. So make that 4 cities.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah you're right. But, tracking solar (and solar with fixed positioning that maximises energy output later in the day) largely applies for more sophisticated sites such as commercial and industrial. I've seen such setups that forego around 20% of solar energy production to maximise production during more expensive time of use windows (including offsetting time of use demand charges). Residential installations are us…

> One up and coming trend which might have a significant impact on this is for residential retail tariffs to be directly linked, at 30min resolution, to the wholesale energy market prices. From what happened in Texas recently that sounds like a nightmare for consumers. https://www.npr.org/2021/03/06/974417969/texas-wont-reduce-1...

I just signed up for amberelectric.com.au. They offer the wholesale power rate (set every 30m by the electricity market authority) and the wholesale solar power feed rate, for a $15/month flat fee.

They avoid the Texas problem by limiting the maximum rate to be no more than the government regulated "default power offer" over the entire year.

Planning on getting both solar power and a battery system in the next 12 months, changing my electric hot water to a heat pump and moving to hydronic heating and split system airconditioning.

I'm also going to install a second circuit back to my smart meter that will connect to my apartment garage space so that an EV charger can be installed in the future.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#299
post #6

One of the best things about this tech is how effective it is at domestic scale. My small roof in London generated 26kWh of electricity today. About 3X what we consumed. https://twitter.com/edent_solar

Can I ask how power generation differs depending on weather conditions? For example, what might be typical daily power generation on a rainy day, on a cold, overcast day in winter etc.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understood a problem that energy providers are investing some minimum (perhaps only the legal minimum) into green provision, an amount that they would have anyway. And, selling this onwards as a premium to the end user without actually changing their behaviour. Since you get the same service (your power ultimately comes from the same grid), it's a pure price discrimination strategy. [This is maybe a general restate…

If the CO2 price was sufficiently high it would be cheaper to go with the green plan.

I am doubtful: my electricity as a residential consumer ultimately comes from the same grid, so my CO2 cost is the same, whether I choose the green plan or not.
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