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‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

theguardian.com

221–230 of 339 posts

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I tell them they will break even in a few years Then why don't more companies offer to become your electricity provider and install the solar panels for free? They could say "We promise that your energy bills will be cheaper this year than last year (as long as you don't use more energy), and within a few years you'll own the panels and can switch to a different electricity provider."

One reason is issues with property ownership. In the U.K. a company could do this but if the original customers were to see the house, they’d have no legal means of compelling the new owners to take up the arrangement. At least that’s what I understand.

The plural of anecdote is not data, but I can provide some figures. There is currently a push in London to get households install solar panels, and I expressed interest in getting a set installed to our house. Sadly, the finances don't add up.

Our house is not exactly small, and optimistically you could fit 10 PV panels on the roof. At least according to the quote I received, but having scouted installations in the nearby places, 8 might be more realistic. (Shape of the roof is a factor.)

Assuming energy prices overall grow as they have over the past decade, it would take 12-15 years to break even on the installation cost. That's with 10 panels. With 8, add a couple of years. And assume there will be no additional maintenance or replacement costs to consider.

So, at least in the UK: unless you are wealthy enough to have a large house with a sufficiently large roof, PV installations are not yet financially viable. It should be better in the rural regions where houses tend to be larger. With more installation surface area available, the marginal cost of each PV panel goes down and the marginal benefit of its energy production goes up.

Hence, in the UK, for a single-family dwelling, a roof with space for 14 panels should be enough to make the installation viable. A house with that much roof surface, at least near us, starts from approximately £700k.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#222
post #86

As a California resident I don't see the cheaper generation cost gets reflected on my utility bill, so what's the point to the consumer? Not to mention the delivery cost is another major part of the bill which is not changed regardless of the source of the electricity.

California is sort of a mess. I think it's all regulatory capture.

Most places, you use more of a resource and you get a volume discount. In california it goes up from .25 to .31 to .39 cents per kwh.

meanwhile the wholesale price of power is no different from anywhere else, maybe .03c/kwh.

One "bright side" is that it makes it practical for people to install solar and at some point their cost drops to zero. So there's a viable market for solar.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think researchers underestimated how much solar simply “makes sense” to the average person. Once the price is reasonable enough, people are very easily able to latch onto the idea of using what they already know and feel - the sun’s heat. Whenever I mention the solar panels in my parents house, the first question is always about the price. When I tell them they will break even in a few years, their next question is…

> I tell them they will break even in a few years Then why don't more companies offer to become your electricity provider and install the solar panels for free? They could say "We promise that your energy bills will be cheaper this year than last year (as long as you don't use more energy), and within a few years you'll own the panels and can switch to a different electricity provider."

Utility scale solar is cheaper than rooftop solar.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#224
post #190

Is Tesla the only company that offers solar roofs? I would love to get an overview of what happens in this space. I don't mean solar panels that can be put on roofs. I mean roofs that are made of solar panels.

Solar shingles have been on the market from several companies for many years. They have never really taken off since they are a lot more expensive and have worse performance than regular solar panels.

You say "they are" as if this still is the case. Do you mean that installing Tesla shingles give a lower ROI than installing normal shingles and solar panels on top of them?

I can not imagine so. I don't know any other industry where this type of "combine two products" is the better approach. In theory, a single system should always give a better ROI than combining two systems that are not made to be combined in the first place.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#225
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not op but we just installed 12kw system in Seattle and will have cost us $23k after federal tax credit. Approximately $2/watt. Get quotes from 3+ credible local companies. Also check energysage.

If you have a mortgage then you are effectively borrowing $23k from the bank for the period of your mortgage - so the total interest could be a significant chunk of money. Assuming that you have some leeway to pay your mortgage off quicker (depending on your exact terms).

Homeowner mortgage rates are well below the long-run return on e.g. the S&P 500. A solar system is just another alternative investment option.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#226

> "[in 2000] Shi agreed and ended up settling in the small city of Wuxi" A bit of a tangent, but it’s always strange to me when people describe Chinese or Indian cities with millions of residents as "small". Wuxi had >1 million people in 2000, and today has like 3.5 million (6.5 million in the prefecture). This article makes it sound like a minor town in a remote province, but Jiangsu has about the same population as…

I thought Birmingham was a small city.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think researchers underestimated how much solar simply “makes sense” to the average person. Once the price is reasonable enough, people are very easily able to latch onto the idea of using what they already know and feel - the sun’s heat. Whenever I mention the solar panels in my parents house, the first question is always about the price. When I tell them they will break even in a few years, their next question is…

> I tell them they will break even in a few years Then why don't more companies offer to become your electricity provider and install the solar panels for free? They could say "We promise that your energy bills will be cheaper this year than last year (as long as you don't use more energy), and within a few years you'll own the panels and can switch to a different electricity provider."

Because if you want to do it at scale it’s cheaper to install some GW on a field somewhere than bothering with roofs of privately owned residential buildings.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#228

Meanwhile the largest California utilities are rolling back incentives for solar[1]. Why? Because they're effectively paying people to take electricity during the peak hours of the duck curve. Texas has the same issue during peak periods of wind power. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-03-16/california...

Here's the California Independent System Operator (CAISO) data that shows the share of different energy sources over the course of each day:

http://www.caiso.com/todaysoutlook/pages/supply.aspx

Power is being exported in the afternoons, but even at that time natural gas plants continue to run.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#229
post #226

> "[in 2000] Shi agreed and ended up settling in the small city of Wuxi" A bit of a tangent, but it’s always strange to me when people describe Chinese or Indian cities with millions of residents as "small". Wuxi had >1 million people in 2000, and today has like 3.5 million (6.5 million in the prefecture). This article makes it sound like a minor town in a remote province, but Jiangsu has about the same population as…

I thought Birmingham was a small city.

Birmingham, Alabama is.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#230
post #6

One of the best things about this tech is how effective it is at domestic scale. My small roof in London generated 26kWh of electricity today. About 3X what we consumed. https://twitter.com/edent_solar

>About £8,000 from Sims Solar. T

I wonder how much would it cost now?

So that means I could, theoretically move to a remote or desert location, somehow install a solar panel myself, set a Starlink Internet, and live happily ever after? Assuming I could somehow grow potatoes in a small green house.

Edit: Missing Drinking Water and Sewage treatment.

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