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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#561

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

I am asking for it but what the hell.

I was a union member back in the last 1980s through 1990s early. I was in a low skilled job where we paid our dues and got exactly nothing for it. Oh we had a wonderful contract that specified it all. It was great for basically keeping anyone new boxed in. Each quarter if we were lucky we got a visit by our local union rep in her Mercedes which cost more than many of us made a year. So I am so not a big union supporter and lean against them.

On another personal note, they spent decades harassing my uncles, now cousins industrial roofing business calling OSHA and other inspectors out to where even the OSHA representatives joked about it. It became a coffee break for them. All this over a company with less than thirty people at max.

So while they may have some application on higher paid jobs when you are low wage there isn't much they do for you other than suck two hours of wages or more from you each month.

People here glorify unions have no experience with them at the level that would have been seen in Amazon. They have these grandiose ideas how everyone benefits. Oh don't get me wrong, you are likely to get some changes that are beneficial, but in the end you are still exactly where you are before but now its all in nice pretty print writing which spells out exactly how you aren't going anywhere fast. Oh, don't forget the monthly payout (could be weekly in some places) and don't expect much if you ever actually reach strike stage.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#562

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

For me, it is all anecdotes from my dad (some of which I observed first hand). He worked for unions for half of his career and then intentionally uprooted us to move to a right to work state purely to escape the unions. He moved up the ranks and ended his career as the general manager of a manufacturing facility. The next county over was heavily unionized. The contrast in the two counties was notable. The industry in…

How much of that difference was due to capital preferring to invest in the right to work environment while deliberately neglecting the unionized jurisdiction? It is hard to use purely observational evidence to determine causation. You need sophisticated statistical techniques, and many observations, to conduct meaningful observational studies.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

I agree though. If we ever want to have a chance at closing the gap between low and middle classes, then we need a basic income for people making under a certain income. Taking away the hardships of deciding whether to put gas in your car or get groceries isn't a decision someone should have to make. An extra $500-1K per month for those people would make a world of difference and ease a lot of those everyday decision…

> could've given every person in the country a million dollars each

That'd be $329 trillion[1], which is on the order of 100x what we spent.

1: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%241+million%2Fperson+...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need better education so that people stop voting against their own self-interest, in union elections and generally.

You mean like all those inner city women who constantly vote for gun control despite easy access to hot lead being the best way they can protect themselves from violence? Or are we talking about the hicks that vote against government healthcare and social safety nets despite the fact that they would themselves benefit? "Voting against their interest" is just how the ivory tower crowd derides the poor for sticking to…

> making sacrifices in the name of their beliefs does not make them stupid.

Most of them are not aware that they are making sacrifices, though. They were convinced that the only alternative is communism.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#565
post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA needs better education so that people understand economics and labor markets, so they wont calling paid positions indentured servitude.

How long do you think people will survive if they aren't working? Not calling employment servitude is dishonest.

By that definition, who on this entire planet is not an indentured servant?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#566
post #465
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The warehouse workers get the same (extremely generous) healthcare as every other Amazon employee (due to ERISA). And even if they didn't, through the Affordable Care Act, someone at that income level can buy a "Gold" plan with low deductibles for $75/month. Obviously for Amazon workers, that's irrelevant. K-12 education is free, and once you factor in-state tuition and FAFSA, university is also basically free for an…

In Europe free healthcare is guaranteed even if you lose your job, and there are essentially no limitations (if you need an expensive treatment, you get it, no matter what).

That's a very general statement which is false in some countries (e.g. in Poland unless you are a child or elderly and are unemployed, you are going to pay out of your own pocket)

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hard to fire bad performers In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure. It's also the common canard to use from the managerial class to get rid of someone they don't like. > your merits don't matter at all They don't either in the non-union corporate world either. They pay as little as they can get away with. They'll assign as much work as you can possibly do, and then pil…

This kind of obtuse comment is part of why pro-union people have such a hard time convincing any anti-union people. People have had bad experiences with unions protecting shitty employees far beyond what companies usually do, and the response amounts to, "NUH UHHH". If that's what people have actually experienced, telling them "actually what you saw with your eyes isn't reality" is not effective messaging.

The comment you responded to gave a response to multiple points, it's far from "nuh uh." Your characterization is inaccurate.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone's right is someone else responsibility I don't follow. What are some examples of this?

If college is free (or loans are forgiven), people who never went to college would have to subsidize those who did. If healthcare is free, people who are healthy have to pay healthcare for those who aren't. I'm not taking a stance one way or the other on these issues, just trying to illustrate the argument.

Ok, thanks. IIRC, that's called collectivism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#569

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

>a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them. How did we as a nation go from the land of the free, a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, to "beg for scraps or you will starve."

> land of the free, a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage

All of this has always been propaganda, nothing more. The average unskilled worker has never had a good life in America.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this. - Health care - Worker protections - Required time off - Sick time - Maternity leave etc. Here its $15. And you're on your fucking own. If you compare it to completely underdeveloped or dictatorial economies... Sure I guess its way better. But the US shouldn't be comparing comparing itself to that. Its like saying "This engineer is horrible, but he's no…

Does Amazon not provide health care to their workers? https://www.amazondelivers.jobs/about/benefits/

It’s not a binary thing, nutsac.
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