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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#541

Post by TulliusCicero »

duckfang wrote: post #254
parliament32 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, it came from working for a massive union (government, not US) for many years. The downsides are real: hard to fire bad performers, your merits don't matter at all (the guy doing the bare minimum job description gets the same raises as you), wayyy too much focus on seniority (for promotions, vacation selection, etc), and overall just too many rules (for example, "unlimited vacation" works great with my cur…

> hard to fire bad performers In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure. It's also the common canard to use from the managerial class to get rid of someone they don't like. > your merits don't matter at all They don't either in the non-union corporate world either. They pay as little as they can get away with. They'll assign as much work as you can possibly do, and then pil…

This kind of obtuse comment is part of why pro-union people have such a hard time convincing any anti-union people.

People have had bad experiences with unions protecting shitty employees far beyond what companies usually do, and the response amounts to, "NUH UHHH".

If that's what people have actually experienced, telling them "actually what you saw with your eyes isn't reality" is not effective messaging.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#542

Post by metters »

dominotw wrote: post #530
fartcannon wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

> The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better I believe The USA spends most on social welfare than any other country.

You believe so, but at least Wikipedia says the US are 22nd per capita (which is more relevant than the total spending) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#543

Post by nimbius »

aarongray wrote: post #127

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

>a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

How did we as a nation go from the land of the free, a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, to "beg for scraps or you will starve."

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#544

Post by tablespoon »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #443
tablespoon wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So let me get this straight: companies shouldn't be investing money into revitalizing impoverished areas? No, they should do so, just not be so exploitative about it (e.g. deliberately going into areas full of desperate people, for the reason of using that desperation to exert maximum control with minimum accountability).

Have you ever shopped around for lower pricing? The collective population of the world does this when we chose to purchase things for cheaper prices made in countries with more lax environmental and labor laws.

> Have you ever shopped around for lower pricing?

It's one thing to shop for a lower price, it's quite another to notice someone's desperate and take advantage.

> The collective population of the world does this when we chose to purchase things for cheaper prices made in countries with more lax environmental and labor laws.

An a lot of people object to that, too, and they often lack the power to make any other decision.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#545

Post by specialist »

qeternity wrote: post #353
specialist wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which organizations have figured out how to handle their bad apples?

It’s not a binary outcome. Of course all large organizations will have people of varying types. But it’s an order of magnitude easier to clean house outside of government and union shops.

Am big fan of Peter Drucker. Believe management is a technology.

I'd LOVE for someone to research this. Case studies. Metrics.

My experience with unions has been mixed. Same with non-union shops. Recognizing that I'm just a simple bear, I haven't been able to figure out any rules for what works, or doesn't. My hunch is governance. eg Unions that are more democratic, accountable perform better. I have zero notions about what might make non-union shops better or worse.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#546

Post by hhjinks »

flavius29663 wrote: post #246
fartcannon wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

I made what translates to roughly $14 doing gallup calls as a teen in Europe.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#547

Post by CarlosEscobedo »

killjoywashere wrote: post #526
Justsignedup wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this. - Health care - Worker protections - Required time off - Sick time - Maternity leave etc. Here its $15. And you're on your fucking own. If you compare it to completely underdeveloped or dictatorial economies... Sure I guess its way better. But the US shouldn't be comparing comparing itself to that. Its like saying "This engineer is horrible, but he's no…

Does Amazon not provide health care to their workers? https://www.amazondelivers.jobs/about/benefits/

almost guaranteed though its not completely covered by amazon, and workers have to pay monthly premiums like most jobs that offer healthcare.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#548

Post by dominotw »

metters wrote: post #542
dominotw wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better I believe The USA spends most on social welfare than any other country.

You believe so, but at least Wikipedia says the US are 22nd per capita (which is more relevant than the total spending) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_...

> Wikipedia says the US are 22nd per capita

I see USA at 10 in per capita section in your wiki link.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#549

Post by atdrummond »

beaconstudios wrote: post #515
ianbutler wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I just want a functional healthcare system and for them to continue to make $15/hr.

the UK healthcare system isn't so great either. It's good enough for a safety net (mostly... the wait times are horrendous for non-emergency work, and I know a guy whose collarbone pokes out at a right angle because his doctor wouldn't fix the break), but if you have a chronic condition that isn't one of the handful of really common ones that all doctors know about (like IBS) then you're mostly on your own unless you…

My experience with the NHS has been overall quite good, despite having an exceptionally severe presentation of Crohns and an aggressive leukemia. I’ve never been in a case where I have had to wait an exorbitant amount of time for either acute or routine care. This is across multiple cities and countries in the NHS.

I likewise had some of the best American specialists in GI and oncology. I also ended up with six figures in medical debt despite having incredible insurance and a great job. I also experienced excruciating wait times at emergency rooms that dwarfed anything I’ve encountered at the A&E in the UK.

The NHS obviously has massive scope for improvement and isn’t even the healthcare system I have felt the most secure in (that was the Swiss) but I am confident that the NHS is almost certainly better for the average Brit than the US medical system is for the average American.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#550

Post by bendbro »

DC1350 wrote: post #441
parliament32 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, it came from working for a massive union (government, not US) for many years. The downsides are real: hard to fire bad performers, your merits don't matter at all (the guy doing the bare minimum job description gets the same raises as you), wayyy too much focus on seniority (for promotions, vacation selection, etc), and overall just too many rules (for example, "unlimited vacation" works great with my cur…

> hard to fire bad performers Why do you care about this as an employee? You get nothing when somebody else makes the company more money.

Because I actually want to make an impact at my job and constantly carrying idiots on my back is a horrible experience.

Thankfully my workplace is not unionized and I have great team members. Whether union or non-union workplaces can encourage that, I don't know, but that is an example of why an employee would care.

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