Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#461

Post by bradleyjg » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

regextegrity wrote: post #267

bradleyjg wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to believe this isn’t the top reply. You don’t need to go off into some long discussion about the philosophy of collective action. This vote was no because if it had been yes the likely consequence would have been all the voters being out of a job.

> This vote was no because if it had been yes the likely consequence would have been all the voters being out of a job. Isn't that a problem?

Maybe. But it’s not some deep mystery why the vote was no. All the threads and sub threads discussing it as if it were a deep mystery puzzle me. I’m always bemused at smart people with strong opinions on subjects where they don’t even have a grasp of the basic factual landscape.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#462

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

plexman wrote: post #444

quijoteuniv wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that might be right,You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare & education.

Free? Nothing is free, what do you mean? Healthcare and education don't grow on trees. Dublin income tax is between 30% to 40%, you pay one way or another.

The you paying taxes in question might be different from the you that is unable to afford healthcare.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#463

Post by musingsole » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

jhbadger wrote: post #228

atat7024 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which shark do you trust to protect you?

The one you can vote for leadership. Unions are imperfect, but they are democracies. Corporations on the other hand are feudal. You don't get to vote Bezos into power as a worker -- he's just the lord of the manor. Some nobles are good and some nobles are bad, but the serfs have no say.

> but they are democracies

I really don't like democracy mixing with my business. It's the best, terrible system we have for when we have no other choice but to come to a mutual decision. But it really should be your last option.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#464

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

tarquinpussy wrote: post #23

nanna wrote: post #7

I'm confused, why did they need a vote to start a union? Here in the UK pretty sure if a load of workers want to start a union, they can - irrespective of whether they're in the majority or not. Sounds to me like the circumscription of a need for a majority itself comes from anti-union legislation.

In the US they still have closed shops (where you have to be a union member to work there), and in the UK you still need to reach a threshold of membership before the employer has to 'recognise' them and negotiate with them. The situation isn't as different as you are making out.

In some states in the US. In other states, there are “right to work” laws banning closed shops.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#465

Post by panta » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #323

quijoteuniv wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that might be right,You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare & education.

The warehouse workers get the same (extremely generous) healthcare as every other Amazon employee (due to ERISA). And even if they didn't, through the Affordable Care Act, someone at that income level can buy a "Gold" plan with low deductibles for $75/month. Obviously for Amazon workers, that's irrelevant. K-12 education is free, and once you factor in-state tuition and FAFSA, university is also basically free for an…

In Europe free healthcare is guaranteed even if you lose your job, and there are essentially no limitations (if you need an expensive treatment, you get it, no matter what).

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#466

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #317

rayiner wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost of living in the middle of nowhere in the US is almost certainly less than nearly anywhere in Western Europe. The media home value in Bessemer is like $90,000.

Go on... Food? Health care? Transportation?

The COL in Bessemer is going to be less than in Western Europe. Do you live in America?

You're right that healthcare could be more expensive, but there is also employer-covered health insurance.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#467

Post by 8fGTBjZxBcHq » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #264

kethinov wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false dichotomy. The solution to a badly run union is to run it better, not dissolve it and surrender all your power to your boss, just as the solution to a badly run republic is to elect better leaders, not abandon democracy and go back to the bad old days of monarchy. Unions are workplace democracy. Opposing them is by definition supporting workplace monarchy.

This is extremely ideological to the point of simply being untrue. The best outcome for everyone is no union and a supportive employer that gives you a fair deal so you don’t want one. Unions are a huge tradeoff and better as a last resort.

I don't see how "you should just hope for an employer who is benevolent in spite of every possible economic incentive otherwise" is less idealogically motivated.

But anyway yes in my case it is idealogical and I won't dispute that at all. Anything that reduces the power of companies or increases the power of works is something I favor regardless of political practicality.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#468

Post by DonnyV » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

christophilus wrote: post #355

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

For me, it is all anecdotes from my dad (some of which I observed first hand). He worked for unions for half of his career and then intentionally uprooted us to move to a right to work state purely to escape the unions. He moved up the ranks and ended his career as the general manager of a manufacturing facility. The next county over was heavily unionized. The contrast in the two counties was notable. The industry in…

What were the 2 counties and in what state. I'm sure this is all true but I like verify.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#469

Post by musingsole » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

genericone wrote: post #357

vb6sp6 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few German customers and I also get the impression that their unions seem to work. It seems to be a result of multiple factors: 1. "Mitbestimmung" or co-determination. German workers elect the board of directors. 2. Labor reps vote alongside shareholders 3. Laborers in the same strata form "work councils" and choose reps to bring issues to managers or higher up the chain 4. "Betriebsverfassungsgesetz" federa…

Yeah, give the employees some skin in the business, not just in the labor negotiations... Incentivize good union behavior, not adversarial behavior.

I believe Co-ops are a nature progression to merge the split between business and labor unions.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#470

Post by yibg » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

duckfang wrote: post #254

parliament32 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, it came from working for a massive union (government, not US) for many years. The downsides are real: hard to fire bad performers, your merits don't matter at all (the guy doing the bare minimum job description gets the same raises as you), wayyy too much focus on seniority (for promotions, vacation selection, etc), and overall just too many rules (for example, "unlimited vacation" works great with my cur…

> hard to fire bad performers In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure. It's also the common canard to use from the managerial class to get rid of someone they don't like. > your merits don't matter at all They don't either in the non-union corporate world either. They pay as little as they can get away with. They'll assign as much work as you can possibly do, and then pil…

You make it sound like everything is subjective and there are no bad or good workers. And since we can't accurately, objectively measure performance, let's just pick metric we can measure even though it has no correlation with performance.

Bad performers can absolutely be spotted, at least in the extreme. People that don't show up to work, or are chronically late (for work where this matters) or violate safety rules for example. They get protected by unions and are hard to remove.