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Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

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Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#991

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Personally I’ve not dismissed this possibility at all. But as it stands, it’s just a hypothesis with suggestive information, but nothing concrete. There are verified wrongs to criticize them for right now, and can be a starting point for remediation, rather than drum up hate and criticism of mere hypothetical wrongs. (And of course, one such example of a verifiable wrong could be proof of Chinese institution…

The problem is that discussing this hypothesis in any form is often labeled as "offensive" and "racist". The generally accepted theory even in the West is the lab leak was somehow disproved. It's always baffled me, because the only way you could really disprove the lab leak theory would be by finding the original source of the virus. Instead, the media often attempts to disprove the lab leak by pointing out that COVI…

You’re exaggerating. I’ve seen plenty of valid and serious coverage of this from big outlets (NPR, Economist) explaining the plausibility of the scenario, not “disproving” in any manner. Which “the media” are you referring to?

I’ve also seen plenty of valid conversations about this on various web forums where it didn’t come to name calling.

I’ve also seen plenty of aggressive and disingenuous arguments by angry people, who proclaim their suspicions are true facts instead of probability assessments, and then perch their discussions on the assumed truth of those suspicions.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#992
post #948

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is demonized not because of an accident (if it was one). Even if it's confirmed that a lab accident was the cause, China holds the blame for hiding the truth, telling the world it's all okay, and arresting people that dared to speak out (even causing their deaths). No matter what was the origin, China is responsible for the outbreak. Btw, I don't think we can ever find out the truth. It's been over a year, and…

Seems the same behaviour with any other country. Can you name just one that would behave different? So this is no accusation but just business as usual. Besides, why at all trying to blame anyone on this? It's a natural disaster that could happen to anyone anywhere. The real culprit is, that as long as the wealthy don't try to vaccinate everyone in this world as quickly as possible, the virus still has potential to m…

Which other governments arrested & jailed people for reporting on the outbreak?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54969682

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#993

Like, so what? Should we care a lot about the safety and security of places where dangerous infectious diseases are studied? sure! I think we should care A LOT MORE about our [apparent total lack of] ability to quickly deploy effective public health responses to new infectious diseases (regardless of their source). Maybe it was an accident at a sloppy lab, ok, so labs on the other side of the planet in sovereign coun…

>Like, so what?

Like so let's try to stop it happening again.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#994

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen any videos, but you wouldn't necessarily have to have people "walking" in the streets to have people dying in the streets. Major cities often have plenty of people who are sitting or standing in the street all day long.

Yeah I'll need to check again but I seem to remember a video where elderly people were literally dropping dead "casually"? Weird how I seem to have memory holed myself lol.

This is correct. There were videos of people walking around in the streets and then just suddenly falling over dead.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#995
post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 9/11 attacks killed less than 3,000 people. Or if you want percentages, resulted in the deaths of about 0.0009% of the U.S. populace. Yet it sent our country to war and has had an impact on millions of people. It is in the very nature of terrorist acts that they "terrorize" the wide populace, while only a tiny fraction are ever victims of terrorism. It is similar with hate crimes. Human psychology deals with numb…

I'd like to first take an aside and apologize for a previous error. I divided incidents by population and came to 0.0006. This is off by an order of magnitude. But that is not the worst of it. This number belongs in the context of crime rates. Gallup [1] tells me that 1-3% of people are victims of violent crimes. So I must further multiply by 100 and conclude that hate crimes represent 0.6% of the total violent crime…

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Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#996
post #457
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could even go back another step and recognize that the person you're replying to has made completely unsubstantiated and fabricated claims about: 1. An increase in violence targeted specifically at Asian people that is in excess of the already-documented rise of violence in general experienced across all groups in 2020. 2. An attribution that this imaginary excess violence is "white supremacist" in nature and int…

Weird that you talk about "making shit up" when your post contains no cites.

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Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#997

That we’re finally seeing some mainstream discussion around this hypothesis should not change the scary fact that months ago governments, scientists and media happily and immediately rejected it as a xenophobic conspiracy theory. The messaging and subsequent ease at which public opinion was influenced should make everyone pause and think hard about other ways they might be being manipulated.

Yes, it's interesting, but ultimately pointless. This kind of manipulation is very easy if you get everyone onboard. Once something is politically unpopular enough, everyone will swear on an that they disbelieve it (even if they secretly believe it). So really, your friends perhaps believed the lab theory, but if someone spouts politically unpopular opinions like that, they will seek to bring you into alignment or else distance themselves from you, all without revealing that they believe it also.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#998

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's quite accurate: https://thewest.com.au/news/health/who-team-visits-wuhan-res...

Except that it was (allegedly) a whole load of BS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evHFsNSMTLM

Fair points about the one year delay etc., and the initial WHO response. The Chinese government is hardly renowned for transparency. I was just replying to a claim that the investigation hadn't been allowed anywhere near the lab: they did get a cursory visit after a one year delay.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#999
'A lab leak isn't 100% certain but it seems to be the only logical source of Covid': Washington expert who led inquiry into the cause of the virus reveals three Wuhan lab scientists fell ill in November 2019

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9410163/US-State-De...

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#1000
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are indeed misunderstanding the point. Smallpox is also naturally originating virus. That doesn't prohibit it from leaking from a lab.

The author is irresponsibility propagating a conspiracy theory and elevating its status in the public’s mind. I’m a bioscientist. It’s frustrating to respond with evidence and in good faith, and be downvoted by those who simply disagree. But sadly it appears that the loudest voice prevails over reason. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00599-7

You keep reposting this Nature article but it is vacuous. There are many "guilt by association to Trump", "false equivalency to outrageous conspiracy theories", etc. and other non-good-faith argumentation that the author relies upon. This does not give confidence in her motives.

There are a few much more substantive sites with analysis into the genetics and circumstances around the virus, which emerged since the April 2020 which your Nature article cites as its primary source.

Here's a direct debunk of that article: https://harvardtothebighouse.com/2020/03/19/china-owns-natur...

That author has written a more extensive article with much more information around the lab itself: https://harvardtothebighouse.com/2020/01/31/logistical-and-t...

And here is an analysis of RaTG13, the closest relative of SARS-CoV-2, as a "smoking gun":

https://spark.adobe.com/page/7BVPjWfEJgQYB/

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