Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#451

Post by drocer88 » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

tbenst wrote: post #290

whiddershins wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, like many others, would truly like to be pointed to resources that can help me understand what would lead bio scientists to this conclusion. Make no mistake, I am super well aware that I lack all the grounding to understand the explanation. But can you point me in the right direction? The context surrounding what you are saying must be learnable. At least to some level.

Your request is admirable! Here’s how I go about gathering info: Google “covid 19 origin evidence”, look for academic publications or scientific journalism that is well-cited & from reputable sources, eg [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-01205-5 [2] https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-05-09/was-the-cor... [3] https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/05/scientis... [4] https://www.nationalg…

There are other results, too. For instance ... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmv.26478 "However, the SARS‐CoV‐2 host tropism/adaptation pattern has significant discrepancies compared with other CoVs, raising questions concerning the proximal origin of SARS‐CoV‐2. The flat and nonsunken surface of the sialic acid‐binding domain of SARS‐CoV‐2 spike protein (S protein) conflicts with the general adaptation and survival pattern observed for all other CoV" . https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-esca... : “There are indeed many unexplained features of this virus that are hard if not impossible to explain based on a completely natural origin.” Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist at Rutgers University, wrote that he’d been concerned for some years about the Wuhan laboratory and about the work being done there to create “chimeric” (i.e., hybrid) SARS-related bat coronaviruses “with enhanced human infectivity.” Ebright said, “In this context, the news of a novel coronavirus in Wuhan *screamed* lab release.”

I couldn't find anything on Fox News.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#452

Post by watertom » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

A lot of smart people in this forum.

Someone please explain to me how the Chinese were able to identify that that had a new virus.

I’ve done pandemic drills with homeland security. They said they way you know you’ve got a new virus floating around is either new symptoms; significantly more “flu like” cases; significantly more cases escalating to pneumonia; increased deaths.

Covid presents like the flu, so much so you need a test, but early on a test was not available. So the symptoms are not unique.

Early on there was not a spike in cases, so that would not have sparked an interest.

Early on there was not a significant uptick in flu cases turning to to pneumonia, so that would not have sparked interest.

Early on there was not a spike in deaths, so that would not have e sparked an interest.

In fact when the Chinese discovered covid, there was absolutely no evidence that anything out of the ordinary was taking place.

But somehow the Chinese knew that they had a very contagious, bat based virus circulating, based on no information.

Everyone is focused on the wrong thing, I want to know how they discovered it with no information?

I’ve always believed this was an lab accident by a technician that needed their job so they covered it up until they and too many family members got sick and it was obvious something was wrong.

They knew about the virus because it was being studied, and that’s the only answer that makes any sense.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#453

Post by dang » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

president wrote: post #449

gregwebs wrote: post #397

This is a great article explaining why a lab leak should always be a suspect. The alternative theory is that a virus traveled on its own (via bats or other animals) from bat caves 900km away to Wuhan where there are 2 labs researching bats. One of the labs is lesser known but is right next to the seafood market and the hospital where the outbreak was first known. [1] This article points out that a lab outbreak could…

> We need to avoid demonizing China over this Not a productive message and this sentiment just distracts from the discussion, which is playing into China's narrative. > if we want to ever find out the truth and learn how to prevent another pandemic outbreak. It's a bit late isn't it? China witheld early information about the virus and prevented WHO scientists from visiting ground zero. Silencing journalists and censo…

This comment is a noticeable step into nationalistic flamewar. Please don't do that in HN comments. That way lies hell, and we're trying for a different sort of discussion here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#454

Post by caeril » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

enchiridion wrote: post #340

danudey wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's also add in that the "Wuhan lab leak theory", combined with the "China virus" nomenclature, has resulted in huge increases in racist and white supremacist violence against people of Asian descent.

It's infuriating. I'm not sure what the solution is though. We can just not talk about the very real lab leak hypothesis because some people are dangerously unstable.

You could even go back another step and recognize that the person you're replying to has made completely unsubstantiated and fabricated claims about:

1. An increase in violence targeted specifically at Asian people that is in excess of the already-documented rise of violence in general experienced across all groups in 2020.

2. An attribution that this imaginary excess violence is "white supremacist" in nature and intent.

3. A direct causal connection between this imaginary and poorly-attributed violence stemming specifically from the origin of the virus.

It's easier to defend freedom to hypothesize when you realize that the people advocating against said freedom are, themselves, simply making shit up.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#455

Post by dang » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

throwaway53453 wrote: post #433

boomboomsubban wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem I have is that China isn't interested in investigating the start of the pandemic. Why should they be interested? We know how SARS type viruses can spread to humans, we know what other species are vulnerable, and we know what things make it more or less likely. A new outbreak was not a surprising result. What benefit is there to aggressively investigating the exact transmission method? If your mink idea w…

I'd argue China needs to engage in proper sanitation and stop treating citizens as disposable.

Please do not post nationalistic flamebait to HN. It leads to flamewars, which we're trying to avoid here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

While I have you: could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=community%20identity%20by:dang...

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#456

Post by geoduck14 » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

musicale wrote: post #445

Most of the media coverage and consensus, from the Washington Post to Nature, seems to be that: - the lab escape theory has been thoroughly debunked by science - the WHO investigation put the final nails in the coffin of this theory - therefore, lab escape continues to be a fringe conspiracy theory at best - coverage of the lab escape theory is politically motivated rather than scientifically motivated - continued co…

The WHO investigation DID NOT eliminate this theory. From what I remember, while the WHO was investigating, one member said "it didn't come from a lab". Then when everyone returned to their home country, some members suggested that it was possible - and I don't think their official report opined on it coming from a lab.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#457

Post by DanBC » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #454

enchiridion wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's infuriating. I'm not sure what the solution is though. We can just not talk about the very real lab leak hypothesis because some people are dangerously unstable.

You could even go back another step and recognize that the person you're replying to has made completely unsubstantiated and fabricated claims about: 1. An increase in violence targeted specifically at Asian people that is in excess of the already-documented rise of violence in general experienced across all groups in 2020. 2. An attribution that this imaginary excess violence is "white supremacist" in nature and int…

Weird that you talk about "making shit up" when your post contains no cites.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#458

Post by Klinky » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

musicale wrote: post #445

Most of the media coverage and consensus, from the Washington Post to Nature, seems to be that: - the lab escape theory has been thoroughly debunked by science - the WHO investigation put the final nails in the coffin of this theory - therefore, lab escape continues to be a fringe conspiracy theory at best - coverage of the lab escape theory is politically motivated rather than scientifically motivated - continued co…

No, nothing has really changed. It's an opinion article that's basically saying since lab accidents happened elsewhere, a lab accident could have happened in Wuhan. No smoking gun here.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#459

Post by eloff » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 10:46 PM UTC

jounker wrote: post #432

gregwebs wrote: post #397

This is a great article explaining why a lab leak should always be a suspect. The alternative theory is that a virus traveled on its own (via bats or other animals) from bat caves 900km away to Wuhan where there are 2 labs researching bats. One of the labs is lesser known but is right next to the seafood market and the hospital where the outbreak was first known. [1] This article points out that a lab outbreak could…

It’s quite possible that it’s a pangolin virus. Guess what trafficked in Chinese wet markets?

The earliest cases has no known link to the wet market. That's an old hypothesis.

Re: Why the Wuhan lab leak theory shouldn't be dismissed

#460

Post by wilg » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 10:46 PM UTC

jounker wrote: post #432

gregwebs wrote: post #397

This is a great article explaining why a lab leak should always be a suspect. The alternative theory is that a virus traveled on its own (via bats or other animals) from bat caves 900km away to Wuhan where there are 2 labs researching bats. One of the labs is lesser known but is right next to the seafood market and the hospital where the outbreak was first known. [1] This article points out that a lab outbreak could…

It’s quite possible that it’s a pangolin virus. Guess what trafficked in Chinese wet markets?

Apparently the Pangolin thing is looking less likely: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-0771-4