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Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

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Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#41

Post by CameronNemo »

Nextgrid wrote: post #4
julianlam wrote: post #3

> (Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it.) Ah yes... such as push notifications. Firebase would be so much more useful if Safari supported push notifications...

What do you mean by "useful"? I've been using Safari exclusively for years now and the lack of push notifications hasn't been a problem. It's actually good because it shields me from all kinds of shitty websites demanding notification permissions while having no good reason to send any.

Why are we optimizing the case of users browsing bad websites? Why not cater to good websites instead?

Isn't a notification receiver of the most important uses of a phone?

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#42

Post by heavyset_go »

chrisseaton wrote: post #35
heavyset_go wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this specific use case, it's missing the Web Push API[1], which can be used to implement push notifications, and the Web Notification API[2], which can also be used for the same thing. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Push_API [2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notificatio...

Isn’t the entire point of progressive web apps that they’re tolerant of different features being available or not? That’s ‘progressive enhancement’. Your app is supposed to work if the functionality isn’t there, or equally if it’s there but denied access. You can have it show updates when the user checks the app if that’s what they want. Complaining a browser doesn’t support a progressive feature is a contradiction i…

It works, but users don't get the notifications they sign up for and expect without using a native app on iOS.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#43

Post by yladiz »

djrogers wrote: post #32
littlestymaar wrote: post #8

Too bad this is only available on a operating system that spies on its users. (Sorry Apple fans, it does and while their marketing tries to hide it as much as possible, their privacy policies don't lie : https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ ) It's funny how quickly one can get downvoted for criticizing Apple's misleading marketing. Apple is a data hoarding company like every others, and no “not being worse than…

That’s a very long, thoughtful, and detailed document. Linking to it without any context at all isn’t super helpful. What exactly are you referring to when you claim Apple ‘spies on its [sic] users’? Every bit of data Apple has about me is a) made explicitly clear, b) used for a specific purpose or feature, and c) isn’t sold to or used in any adtech bs. That all sounds good to me…

Tangential: why did you put [sic] after its? "its" is correct there.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#44

Post by chrisseaton »

heavyset_go wrote: post #42
chrisseaton wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the entire point of progressive web apps that they’re tolerant of different features being available or not? That’s ‘progressive enhancement’. Your app is supposed to work if the functionality isn’t there, or equally if it’s there but denied access. You can have it show updates when the user checks the app if that’s what they want. Complaining a browser doesn’t support a progressive feature is a contradiction i…

It works, but users don't get the notifications they sign up for and expect without using a native app on iOS.

Right... isn’t that the whole point of progressive web apps? Users get as many features as their browser supports or they permit? That’s the point.

If your app doesn’t work like that then it’s not progressive... so you can’t complain it doesn’t support your progressive app because it’s not progressive.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#45

Post by fragile_frogs »

chrisseaton wrote: post #23
heavyset_go wrote: post #17

> (Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it.) The fact that Apple refuses to implement basic features in mobile Safari that Firefox and Chrome have had for years now, and the fact that they refuse to allow other browser engines on iOS is the reason why we can't have nice things like progressive web apps. I recently worked on a heal…

What is Safari on iOS missing specifically?

Web Push Notifications, ShardeWorker, BroadcastChannel. Native Add to Homescreen, Good Developer tools to debug things on a non Apple computer, Background Sync, Notification Badging API, App Shortcuts

These are only the ones that I remember right now, but I know there is more

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#47

Post by alphabettsy »

adrr wrote: post #38
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #5

This is why, despite it being monopolistic, I hope Apple can continue their requirement on using Safari's rendering engine on iOS. It's the sole remaining defense against a far worse monopoly. Neither the Mozilla nor Edge teams have the backbone to resist Google's web platform initiatives.

People choose to install chrome it doesn't come with Windows Machines or Macs yet is a very popular CHOICE of browser. IOS we have no choice and forced to to use Safari.

I don’t know about you, but I installed Chrome because it’s apparently what developers optimize for and occasionally I’m forced to use it because of bugs.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#48

Post by userbinator »

heavyset_go wrote: post #31
chrisseaton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is Safari on iOS missing specifically?

For this specific use case, it's missing the Web Push API[1], which can be used to implement push notifications, and the Web Notification API[2], which can also be used for the same thing. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Push_API [2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notificatio...

"can be", not "must be"...

Remember that we had real time webchat without JavaScript two decades ago, and a lot of other things that would probably turn into some sort of Chrome-only site if invented today.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#49

Post by littlestymaar »

djrogers wrote: post #32
littlestymaar wrote: post #8

Too bad this is only available on a operating system that spies on its users. (Sorry Apple fans, it does and while their marketing tries to hide it as much as possible, their privacy policies don't lie : https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ ) It's funny how quickly one can get downvoted for criticizing Apple's misleading marketing. Apple is a data hoarding company like every others, and no “not being worse than…

That’s a very long, thoughtful, and detailed document. Linking to it without any context at all isn’t super helpful. What exactly are you referring to when you claim Apple ‘spies on its [sic] users’? Every bit of data Apple has about me is a) made explicitly clear, b) used for a specific purpose or feature, and c) isn’t sold to or used in any adtech bs. That all sounds good to me…

> c) isn’t sold to or used in any adtech bs

What makes you think so? Because the privacy policies you agreed on allows them to (in the the Apple’s Sharing of Personal Data section):

>Partners. At times, Apple may partner with third parties to provide services or other offerings.

Yes, that's it (there is an “Example” section following, but this is non-binding). Any kind of partner, for any kind of “other offering”. Partnering with any ad tech for selling ads complies with this clause.

Also, as I'm not a native speaker, what's wrong with “spies on its[sic] users“? (Note that the original sentence was “operating system that spies on its users” not “Apple spies on its users”)

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#50

Post by olliej »

fragile_frogs wrote: post #45
chrisseaton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is Safari on iOS missing specifically?

Web Push Notifications, ShardeWorker, BroadcastChannel. Native Add to Homescreen, Good Developer tools to debug things on a non Apple computer, Background Sync, Notification Badging API, App Shortcuts These are only the ones that I remember right now, but I know there is more

web push notifications, notification badging, shared worker, etc are user hostile features. They burn battery life, the former two exist almost solely to spam users (Mozilla did a study and it turns out no one wants notifications from random websites).

Safari has had add to home screen for the best part of a decade. Giving web pages the ability to spam users to add it is an anti feature.

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