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Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

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Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#31

Post by heavyset_go »

chrisseaton wrote: post #23
heavyset_go wrote: post #17

> (Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it.) The fact that Apple refuses to implement basic features in mobile Safari that Firefox and Chrome have had for years now, and the fact that they refuse to allow other browser engines on iOS is the reason why we can't have nice things like progressive web apps. I recently worked on a heal…

What is Safari on iOS missing specifically?

For this specific use case, it's missing the Web Push API[1], which can be used to implement push notifications, and the Web Notification API[2], which can also be used for the same thing.

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Push_API

[2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notificatio...

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#32

Post by djrogers »

littlestymaar wrote: post #8

Too bad this is only available on a operating system that spies on its users. (Sorry Apple fans, it does and while their marketing tries to hide it as much as possible, their privacy policies don't lie : https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ ) It's funny how quickly one can get downvoted for criticizing Apple's misleading marketing. Apple is a data hoarding company like every others, and no “not being worse than…

That’s a very long, thoughtful, and detailed document. Linking to it without any context at all isn’t super helpful.

What exactly are you referring to when you claim Apple ‘spies on its [sic] users’?

Every bit of data Apple has about me is a) made explicitly clear, b) used for a specific purpose or feature, and c) isn’t sold to or used in any adtech bs. That all sounds good to me…

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#33

Post by fragile_frogs »

> Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it.

How is Safari not implementing standards seen as a good thing?

While I do acknowledge that there might be privacy concerns when it comes to Chrome, I do appreciate that Google is trying to push the Web forward, while Apple is trying to hold the Web back.

Safari truly is the worst browser, I fucking hate it. Apple is doing the bare minimum and pretends to "protect user privacy" when all they do is to prevent the web to compete with their app store. Apple pretends to care about the user experience when they are the only ones not implementing standards that would benefit the user.

Ohh and you are on Windows and wan't to debug something on Safari? Forget it.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#34

Post by JumpCrisscross »

fragile_frogs wrote: post #33

> Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it. How is Safari not implementing standards seen as a good thing? While I do acknowledge that there might be privacy concerns when it comes to Chrome, I do appreciate that Google is trying to push the Web forward, while Apple is trying to hold the Web back. Safari truly is the worst browser,…

> How is Safari not implementing standards seen as a good thing?

One, “feature” isn’t the same as a standard. And two, standards aren’t standard. They’re adopted through a dubious process and then ignored by the most powerful companies.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#35

Post by chrisseaton »

heavyset_go wrote: post #31
chrisseaton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is Safari on iOS missing specifically?

For this specific use case, it's missing the Web Push API[1], which can be used to implement push notifications, and the Web Notification API[2], which can also be used for the same thing. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Push_API [2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notificatio...

Isn’t the entire point of progressive web apps that they’re tolerant of different features being available or not? That’s ‘progressive enhancement’. Your app is supposed to work if the functionality isn’t there, or equally if it’s there but denied access. You can have it show updates when the user checks the app if that’s what they want.

Complaining a browser doesn’t support a progressive feature is a contradiction in terms!

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#36

Post by userbinator »

heavyset_go wrote: post #17

> (Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it.) The fact that Apple refuses to implement basic features in mobile Safari that Firefox and Chrome have had for years now, and the fact that they refuse to allow other browser engines on iOS is the reason why we can't have nice things like progressive web apps. I recently worked on a heal…

The more I see posts like this that complain about other browsers lacking features and essentially encouraging the "Google-isation" of browsers, the more convinced I am of the power of Google's gigantic monopoly-enhancing propaganda-machine.

Firefox unfortunately has no choice but to be dragged along by Google.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#37

Post by bleachedsleet »

I love Safari as a browser, but I hate the fact that it neuters the web and makes it feel much less powerful. Web Bluetooth and webUSB are ignored by Safari and unsupported. Notification support is lacking last I checked. No PWA functionality to speak of and webNFC won’t be added. Extensions are lacking largely due to being basically native apps that bring with them all the cost and overhead of being such.

As a browser Safari is beautiful (loving the look of it on Big Sur), efficient, lightweight and has a lot of little creature comforts that other browsers can’t or won’t implement because they are Mac specific (keychain, Touch/FaceID, native share sheet, 2fa code reads direct from Messages, etc). But it’s also hard to see a future in a browser that is still stuck in a Web 2.0 philosophy.

The author’s point is good though: Safari is becoming the final bastion of hope against a purely Chromium landscape just by virtue of being an Apple product with an immediately large market share. I hope Apple will use this position of power wisely and help drive browser behavior rather than just being comfortable to exist in their own little world. Wishful thinking, I’m afraid. For Apple Safari seems to be little more than a talking point when advertising MacOS/iOS. It’s just another feature.

For what it’s worth I’ve been really enjoying Vivaldi of late (I have no affiliation with the project, just including for context on my day to day browser).

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#38

Post by adrr »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #5

This is why, despite it being monopolistic, I hope Apple can continue their requirement on using Safari's rendering engine on iOS. It's the sole remaining defense against a far worse monopoly. Neither the Mozilla nor Edge teams have the backbone to resist Google's web platform initiatives.

People choose to install chrome it doesn't come with Windows Machines or Macs yet is a very popular CHOICE of browser. IOS we have no choice and forced to to use Safari.

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#39

Post by DangitBobby »

meibo wrote: post #19
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #5

This is why, despite it being monopolistic, I hope Apple can continue their requirement on using Safari's rendering engine on iOS. It's the sole remaining defense against a far worse monopoly. Neither the Mozilla nor Edge teams have the backbone to resist Google's web platform initiatives.

"Not following sensible standards to protect your own App Store monopoly and being a pain in the ass to work with due to rendering differences that all other browsers get right(even Firefox)" is not a good base to build a defense against a monopoly on.

Saying they don't get rendering "right" implies they aren't following standards. Is Firefox not standards compliant?

Re: Safari is now probably the influential wild card browser for user privacy

#40

Post by heavyset_go »

userbinator wrote: post #36
heavyset_go wrote: post #17

> (Conversely, if Safari refuses to implement some alleged 'feature', it becomes much less useful even if Chrome does implement it.) The fact that Apple refuses to implement basic features in mobile Safari that Firefox and Chrome have had for years now, and the fact that they refuse to allow other browser engines on iOS is the reason why we can't have nice things like progressive web apps. I recently worked on a heal…

The more I see posts like this that complain about other browsers lacking features and essentially encouraging the "Google-isation" of browsers, the more convinced I am of the power of Google's gigantic monopoly-enhancing propaganda-machine. Firefox unfortunately has no choice but to be dragged along by Google.

I'm a mobile and desktop Firefox user, and Firefox has supported the features that are missing from iOS Safari like the Web Notifications API since 2013, and the Web Push API since January 2016.
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