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The Miseducation of America’s Elites

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Re: The Miseducation of America’s Elites

#51

Post by jariel »

borepop wrote: post #36
TerminalSystem3 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, dude - I think to the rational folk on HN it does indeed seem hyperbolic, but there are a lot of really pissed off people who are a little beyond the point of rationality. For instance, a recent survey showing 29% of respondents would support breaking up the US: http://brightlinewatch.org/american-democracy-at-the-start-o... The source is apparently legit and founded by Yale / Dartmouth professors. Combine t…

Well I agree that there are some bigger societal shifts going on that are indeed pretty destabilizing. I was just commenting that nuances of the curriculum of high schools, or even undergrad education, around questions of race/gender/capitalism (or whatever woke themes) is not really quite as consequential as I think some folks, including the author of the article that is the subject of the post, make it out to be. A…

They are not nuances, and they aren't even 'curriculum'. They are a fundamental reshaping of our world view.

'America is a State of White Supremacy' is a pretty fundamentally different want to think about the US than any time in history.

Re: The Miseducation of America’s Elites

#52

Post by jariel »

TerminalSystem3 wrote: post #27
tw_hn_3_9_2021 wrote: post #6

I've encountered this sort of ideology before in education. My plan is to send my children to Chinese public schools in Shanghai. They will live with relatives. They will obtain a better education, better peers, with none of this article's indoctrination at a cheaper cost. I will not risk my (white) children believing they are inferior to anyone else in academics. I do not trust the American education system to bring…

I think in general China could easily play a winning hand here by refusing to give into this nonsense. Not just in education, but in a corporate setting, too. Honestly, it probably won't be such a bad thing for the world to have SOME country moving the ball forward on science and technology. Seems like the US is being increasingly enveloped by the ideology - see the recent "math is racist" campaigns. Side note - it i…

Except that China is actually brutally racist, and openly so.

I loathe woke thinking, but I wouldn't deny that racism is a problem in the US. Paradoxically, I think you could safely say that China is a Han Supremacist state.

Those that are not Han, are a threat to Han Supremacy and are literally thrown in prison or directly suppressed.

I think continental Europe might be a good place to get educated. There is some self-awareness, but it's not overrun with ideologues either.

Re: The Miseducation of America’s Elites

#53

Post by lawpoop »

jariel wrote: post #51
borepop wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I agree that there are some bigger societal shifts going on that are indeed pretty destabilizing. I was just commenting that nuances of the curriculum of high schools, or even undergrad education, around questions of race/gender/capitalism (or whatever woke themes) is not really quite as consequential as I think some folks, including the author of the article that is the subject of the post, make it out to be. A…

They are not nuances, and they aren't even 'curriculum'. They are a fundamental reshaping of our world view. 'America is a State of White Supremacy' is a pretty fundamentally different want to think about the US than any time in history.

Even during times of black chattel slavery, when native Americans were forcibly removed from their lands, and Asians and Middle Easterners were suing in court to be recognized as white, so they could enjoy the benefits of first class citizenship?

Re: The Miseducation of America’s Elites

#54

Post by jariel »

lawpoop wrote: post #53
jariel wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not nuances, and they aren't even 'curriculum'. They are a fundamental reshaping of our world view. 'America is a State of White Supremacy' is a pretty fundamentally different want to think about the US than any time in history.

Even during times of black chattel slavery, when native Americans were forcibly removed from their lands, and Asians and Middle Easterners were suing in court to be recognized as white, so they could enjoy the benefits of first class citizenship?

You mean the time when slavery was common throughout the world, and that literally every spot on planet earth was fundamentally ethnocentric?

So yes, if we want to talk about racial issues during the foundation of America and world history, then sure, but it has not so much to do with America and also, it has little to with White Supremacy and more to do with Ethnocentrism.

Literally today in 2021, in almost every single nation outside the New World or the West, a White person would always be considered an outsider by virtue of their race.

That fact is completely ignored by the woke crowd who want to somehow decontextualise all of this to make it a 'white problem', when it's not. Frankly, I suggest there are a lot of racist impulses behind a lot of the woke smokescreen.

Re: The Miseducation of America’s Elites

#55

Post by harimau777 »

mc32 wrote: post #50
harimau777 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that it is wrong for people to fear retribution for their political beliefs. However a couple of things to consider: How is fearing to be labeled a capitalist different than fearing to be labeled a socialist or communist? I don't think it's fair to imply that the only alternative to being a capitalist is identifying with Cuba or Venezuela. McCarthyism or, until recently, being labeled LGBTQ seem like…

The irony is that is a capitalist institution attended by relatively wealthy people. It’s like Communists going to indoctrination camp not wanting to be labeled communists themselves. Or lgbt being ashamed of being lgbt. Hence my Cuba reference. If they are ashamed of our economic system does that mean they want a socialist economy like VZ? Note Denmark is capitalist and not socialist. Also although what mr McCarthy…

I don't think that you can necessarily say that someone who operates in a capitalist system is a capitalist. In many cases people do not have a choice what system they live in and they may be actively advocating for a change to a different system.

Quibbling about what economic system Venezuela and Denmark have is playing semantics. The fact is, what mainstream leftists are advocating for is something more like Denmark than Venezuela. Saying that they want America to become the next Venezuela is a straw man.

Re: The Miseducation of America’s Elites

#56

Post by mc32 »

harimau777 wrote: post #55
mc32 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is that is a capitalist institution attended by relatively wealthy people. It’s like Communists going to indoctrination camp not wanting to be labeled communists themselves. Or lgbt being ashamed of being lgbt. Hence my Cuba reference. If they are ashamed of our economic system does that mean they want a socialist economy like VZ? Note Denmark is capitalist and not socialist. Also although what mr McCarthy…

I don't think that you can necessarily say that someone who operates in a capitalist system is a capitalist. In many cases people do not have a choice what system they live in and they may be actively advocating for a change to a different system. Quibbling about what economic system Venezuela and Denmark have is playing semantics. The fact is, what mainstream leftists are advocating for is something more like Denmar…

Denmark has no minimum wage law. The welfare system has been reformed and is not as generous as in the 80s. It’s a very homogenous country.

On the other hand they are big on labor unions, so there is that.

Most importantly it’s a capitalist country. It’s not socialist. Or as the locals call it it’s the Nordic model.

If mainstream leftists want the Nordic model which is capitalist, they would not be ashamed of capitalism and need to hide it and be hush hush about the whole thing. Why the induced stigma?

Re: The Miseducation of America’s Elites

#57

Post by lawpoop »

jariel wrote: post #54
lawpoop wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even during times of black chattel slavery, when native Americans were forcibly removed from their lands, and Asians and Middle Easterners were suing in court to be recognized as white, so they could enjoy the benefits of first class citizenship?

You mean the time when slavery was common throughout the world, and that literally every spot on planet earth was fundamentally ethnocentric? So yes, if we want to talk about racial issues during the foundation of America and world history, then sure, but it has not so much to do with America and also, it has little to with White Supremacy and more to do with Ethnocentrism. Literally today in 2021, in almost every si…

You mentioned "any time in history", and for most of its history, the US was explicitly a white supremacist state. Legal segregation only ended in the 1960s.

Yes, other places in the world were like this, but that's irrelevant, isn't it?

Re: The Miseducation of America’s Elites

#58

Post by barbacoa »

joshz404 wrote: post #40
barbacoa wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article was written by bari weiss who in no way a conservative or a propagandist. She is a pretty well respected and moderately well known journalist.

Ah, so this is what Bari is up-to now.

She mostly writes for her substack now.

https://bariweiss.substack.com/

Re: The Miseducation of America’s Elites

#59

Post by IAmWorried »

baix777 wrote: post #43
jariel wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flaw in this line of thinking is that it's unreasonable to suggest this story is 'made up' or 'propaganda'. It's more like: if this is just the experience of a tiny handful of people, well then it's a perspective but it's not important. If it's commonplace, then it's an issue. There were major divisions in the nation in the past - remember that so many rejected desegregation in the 1960's. I think many progressiv…

If you want to find it, you will see racism in America is alive and well. This is what the black lives matter is all about. People may say they agree with MLK, but this is because they know what should be said in public. The actions of society highlight how far we still have to go to fight racism. I know social conservatives who think they aren't racist but don't care about issues like how many more black people end…

So not caring is now a form of racism? Trying to tune out the news and live my life means I am racist?

I think 1. you need to get a grip on reality, 2. you need to look up some violent crime statistics, and 3. you need to look up the homicide rates between the BLM protests and the capitol riots. Calling everyone who doesn't "demand justice" a racist is pretty stupid and a great recipe for further polarization.

Re: The Miseducation of America’s Elites

#60

Post by vineyardmike »

malandrew wrote: post #18
vineyardmike wrote: post #14

> Fluency in woke is an effective class marker and key for these princelings to retain status in university and beyond. While i have heard people issue the sentiment of this article, its hard to take anyone seriously when they use the term "woke". The word is only ever used in a derogatory manner, which is a give-away that the author has clear bias and agenda (as opposed to reporting on the parents and opinions thems…

Your comment is illustrative of the issue in the article. No matter what term is adopted here, people like you will use it against them ex-communicate them from the in-group. If "woke" is verboten, please suggest an alternate word for this groupthink phenomena which is aping all the worst aspects of Catholicism (catechisms, original sin, inquisitions, etc.)?

> people like you will use it against them ex-communicate them from the in-group

I have no will to ex-communicate anyone. But this article, and many similar ones, use "woke" as a straw-man argument against "leftist" ideas. Proof is in your description of the word:

> If "woke" is verboten, please suggest an alternate word for this groupthink phenomena which is aping all the worst aspects of Catholicism (catechisms, original sin, inquisitions, etc.)?

This request is for a word meant to describe a perceived wrong. Woke is the correct word for what you're asking to define because only people with this agenda would use it, esp like that and thats what you want it for. As a more in-group word, try just describing your issue when a situation comes up, instead of grokking a word that carries aggressive culture-war baggage. Eg. try saying what you think, without making it a whole culture war group-think argument (because maybe life is actually more nuanced).

Maybe you're right though. Maybe my in-group knowledge is what allows me to say this. I roll my eyes at this word like when someone old asks a kid if they "tweeted on their face-gram" or someone who doesn't watch sports says "scored a homerun at their hockeyfoot game" but maybe people genuinely make good-faith assumptions that a homerun is a hockey-foot term because all sports are a single concept.

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