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On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

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Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#711

Post by sethammons »

symlinkk wrote: post #233
debo_ wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've observed that brushes with mortality or ill-health can also quickly alter one's perspective. Once one gets the perception that there's a threat of being physically unable to work for much longer, I think the drive to have an increasingly large "safety net" can become very strong.

Or, you’ll realize that you could die at any moment, so you might as well enjoy your money while you have it.

Or you realize you may not die at any moment and find yourself too old or infirm to earn enough support yourself and you need to not enjoy the money now so you might be able to scrape by later.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#712

Post by estaseuropano »

chmod600 wrote: post #546
whack wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I made it and you can too. Poverty has no color. It impacts everyone. You can't tell just by looking at someone. I love your story. There's also a ton of people who will delight in cherry-picking your story, as justification for not expanding the social safety net. "throwaway-0987 did it, and you can too! You just need to stop being so lazy" A few factors to consider: - You had an aunt you could live with - As a yo…

When wearing your policymaking hat, I agree that you should consider what people actually do (which is not always wise) rather than just what they should do. But when actually struggling (or perhaps even when comfortable), you should forget about policy and fairness and just make the best decisions you can and keep trying to do the right thing, and that gives you or your children or grandchildren the best chance to m…

How about a reality hat: the world does not offer everyone equal chances. You live in a country surrounded by fences and border patrol exactly to keep those that were less lucky from trying to get some of that luck.

Even when born in the country, there are better and worse schools, better and worse social infrastructure, a billion different glass ceilings according to color, gender, age, accent or faith.

Your comment perpetuates the eternal lie that everyone can rise to the top, but we all know that some have a 50% chance and others a 0.0005% chance to 'make it'. It's absurd to blame the kid with a bad school and no breakfast for not living up to the highest moral standards and take all the right decisions when they have probably barely to no good advice, guidance or role models.

Its easy to judge, but try to empathise. That's not a policy hat, it's acknowledging reality.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#713

Post by zaccusl »

criticaljudge wrote: post #582
sbarre wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the biggest threat to poor people, would be the ridiculous housing market. I have heard this referred to as the "financialization of housing" in articles I've read over the last few years. Google that term to find out more.. Basically more and more multinational corporations (structured as REITs and similar) have turned their eyes towards the housing market, buying up stock in major cities and wherever ther…

You can't arbitrarily set rent prices. You can only ask what people are also willing to pay. People are willing to pay because they have high paying jobs and want to live near to where they work. And that is ultimately also a good thing. Think about a brain surgeon, who under socialism would have to commute for two hours to his jobs, and under evil capitalism can live 20 minutes from the hospital. Under capitalism he…

Not that I disagree with the notion that "you can't arbitrarily set rent prices", but this is an incredibly simplistic example and does nothing to address literal rent seeking.

If the pandemic has shown us anything, it is that grocery store workers, meat packers, and the supply chain workers that get food (and toilet paper) to our tables are far more important to society than most high paid white collar and knowledge jobs. Does anybody care how well rested the brain surgeon is when you can't even buy produce or rice or meat at the grocery store? Do these employees not have a right to live 20 minutes from their place of employment?

There are ways to address these issues without devolving to some simplistic "capitalism or socialism" (with no in-between) argument.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#714

Post by estaseuropano »

syops wrote: post #214
throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

I very much enjoyed reading your post. You made a statement that, taken literally, I disagree with and wonder if you care to elaborate more on it. I made it and you can too. It seems to me that luck plays a huge role in each success story like yours. My wife had a similar trajectory and makes quite a bit of money. However, along the way, there were hundreds of decisions made that could have gone the wrong way. She's…

Probably nearly everyone can make it. Even the Pakistani kid born into intergenerational debt slavery that means he is making bricks from when he's 5 years old and has no access to school, healthcare or balanced nutrition. It's a difference of a 50% chance for the luckiest to 0.00005% chance for the least lucky.

But to see the world through the lens 'everyone van make it, just put effort and stop worrying' is simply absurd.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#715

Post by scsilver »

pbronez wrote: post #262
scsilver wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remove them from their network and see what happens.

Sure, but social capital is an asset you build like anything else. Remove a big chunk of anyone’s wealth - liquid, paper, social, health - and it’s gonna be painful and disruptive. The point isn’t that they’d be poor if you took away what they built... it’s that they succeed in building it in the first place! That process of building wealth in all its forms is the key. It’s not easy. It’s definitely not fair. Some pe…

What I find sad is that there is a bunch of low hanging investments that improve the "luck" probabilities for all people. Well designed built environments, access to power/refridgeration/medicine, access to information. Obviously there are political barriers to achieving these small investments, but the most successful societies will these basics into existence, and the groups overall quality of life is higher.

I find the developments of cheap solar power + low latency satlite internet + digital banking(access to stable currencies + inflation hedges + global transactions) as essential to deliver the services that the most successful and privileged have used, to the poverty stricken around the world.

As these people join the fold, do we prepare them documentation, do nothing, or set up roadblocks?

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#716

Post by sethammons »

em500 wrote: post #35
deepstack wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is never about how much money you have, rather what situation you are in, what you are expecting and what others around you have.

Yes, according to one of my old economics teachers, above the subsistence level, happiness is approximately how much better off you are than your neighbors.

Growing up poor and now being more well off than most of our community is actually a source of stress for my wife and I.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#717

Post by bagacrap »

cwp wrote: post #328
burlesona wrote: post #167

This is a great write-up, and as someone who spent time being poor-ish, it really resonated. What I realized from my own life experience: the US sawed the bottom rungs off the ladder in the 1950s when it suburbanized. There is no affordable housing or transportation in 95% of the North American land area, and virtually every societal problem we deal with either stems from this or is made worse by it. Then the healthc…

I noticed this after spending time in developing countries. They are set up much better for being poor. Trivial example: you can go into a pharmacy and buy two aspirin. Some people can't afford 100 at a time, and don't need that many anyway. Or rent: you can get a place to live for only $60/month. There's no running water, but it's clean and dry and it has a lock on the door. The cheapest place you can find in the US…

Not a great example. In the US, you can buy small quantities of drugs (or soap or whatever) in the travel section of a CVS, or in a dollar store. Usually this is held up as an example of the difficulty of being poor though (not a boon to the poor), since the unit price is, of course, higher.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#718

Post by deeeeplearning »

jawzz wrote: post #645
deeeeplearning wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US is a great place to live and work with tremendous upward mobility Always confused by this notion. People act as if the US is the only place this is possible but not only is it possible in most of the western world, there is in fact BETTER mobility in the much of the western world relative to the US. The US isn't even in the Top 10! https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-where-intergenerat...

You’re blatantly misquoting the person you’re replying to.

In what way. You would call being 18th in income mobility "tremendous?" I wouldn't.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#719

Post by datavirtue »

xyzzyz wrote: post #570
criticaljudge wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people quickly tire of it when they have to take care of those lazy people directly. I'm not saying nothing should be done. Just that it is a fallacy to think the government simply has infinite money to spend.

When your friend Steve comes to you to "borrow" $100 (that he'll never return), because he's short on rent, and he blew last of his cash on hookers and booze, it seems pretty reasonable and perfectly morally justified to either refuse outright, or condition your help on requirement that Steve gets a job, and quits his hookers and booze habit. Certainly, nobody would ever suggest that you have any obligation to enable…

What if he blew his budget buying cable TV and soda? I lived in poverty, and had many aquaintances who were also in poverty. Everyone had children, and so many of them had $30-40k a year in benefits (welfare). Everyone had gaming consoles and very large modern TVs and computers, endless soda on tap (that is all they would drink), and everyone had cable TV and bought drugs (cocaine, weed)...and cigarettes. Everyone I knew. This was just their life with no serious ambitions. I forgot to mention that most households pulling in government benefits were engaged in fraud. Often the fraud was a live-boyfriend who contributed money but who's income was not counted on the mothers' benefit calculation because she claimed to live alone with her children.

Before you make soap box comments you should be aware of reality. You might think I'm arguing against welfare benefits but I am not. The whole time I watched this state of affairs I seethed because it was middle class tax payers making up the difference in pay for walmart and other corporations who pay poverty wages.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#720

Post by datavirtue »

hellbannedguy wrote: post #589
criticaljudge wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people quickly tire of it when they have to take care of those lazy people directly. I'm not saying nothing should be done. Just that it is a fallacy to think the government simply has infinite money to spend.

I don’t think they are lazy. Many have emotional problems. Most people complain about their jobs, or multiple jobs, but know it provides so much more than money. Half the people I know would have 0 friends, O social life, if not for those lousy jobs. It’s ironic you say the government doesn’t have infinite money to spend. We are about to throw close to two trillion out of a helicopter. There is not a person, well one…

Inflation of US currency is dead.
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