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Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

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Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#541

Post by lorenzhs »

cddotdotslash wrote: post #214
coldpie wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between this privacy fight and the form factor of the iPhone Mini, there's a 90% chance my next phone will be an iPhone after more than a decade on Android. I'm done with this ad-sponsored trash ecosystem.

I've been on Android for a decade as well but just got an iPad mini. The one thing I still cannot figure out how to do on iOS is block ads at the system level. Android has lots of apps that act as a VPN that block ads/trackers via DNS. It blocks ads in the browser, but also in apps. I can't find the equivalent on iOS. All my searches lead to ad blockers using Safari's content blocking, but the VPN-style ad blockers a…

I use https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id691121579 but the UI is very basic - it doesn't come with any filter lists, you need to point it at a hosts list like https://raw.githubusercontent.com/BlackJack8/iOSAdblockList/... manually. It's not compatible with other VPNs at the same time and it displays as a VPN in the top bar. Not ideal but

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#542

Post by paulmd »

ryeguy_24 wrote: post #86

Does anyone support Facebook with this? Does their point below make any sense? I'm supporting Apple now but any merit to the opposing side? Curious to get some informed viewpoints. "This discouragement, this is going to have a real impact on the Internet as we know it, which is increasingly going to move to a paid experience, which again, benefits Apple's bottom line..."

One need only look back at the previous threads on the App Store to find people arguing that Apple should be legally forced to open their platform up to competitors, which would pretty much gut these kinds of privacy-protecting moves. Facebook will immediately move exclusively to a separate app store that doesn't ask developers to justify user-relevant reasons for the permissions it requests, and immediately start demanding full permissions or else you don't get to use the app.

So essentially, people here tend to agree in principle with Apple protecting user privacy and think Facebook is overbearing and infringing on user privacy, but think Apple should be legally stripped of any tools to actually protect users' privacy, because muh sideloading is more important than people's privacy.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26165966

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26276238

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#543

Post by minsc__and__boo »

kube-system wrote: post #511
minsc__and__boo wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely a choice made by Apple. Google said no to giving their user data to the Chinese government.

Google had the advantage that their service was separable from the physical devices using it. I doubt you would be arguing that, if Apple bricked basically every iPhone in China, it would be evidence that their "incentives are aligned with their customers".

Hyperbole.

Being a separate device, as you said, means the phones would still work independent of Apple.

The Chinese government would block updates and sales, hencecustomers would blame them, not Apple, because Apple was incentivized with customers instead of the government moving forward.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#544

Post by sbazerque »

I wonder how much of the tracking would still be necessary if Facebook didn't limit the organic reach of local business pages, as I understand they do in order to boost their ad offerings, and allowed them some space in the feed based purely on the likes/fans/comments they have as they did in the early years.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#545

Post by throwawayboise »

arrosenberg wrote: post #472
buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some reason I have a bad feeling about this update actually getting released. I'm worried that FB is going to convince some judge to tell Apple they can't do this, and delay it for months or years. Maybe (hopefully) this is an irrational worry, but you never know the extent to which people will go when billions of dollars are on the line.

Unless FB is preparing an incredibly ironic antitrust/market competition case against Apple, I'm not sure what they'd have standing on.

FB undoubtedly knows enough about powerful judges and politicians to get what they want. J. Edgar Hoover's wildest dreams didn't contemplate what Facebook can do.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#546

Post by kergonath »

rorykoehler wrote: post #506
sodality2 wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is Apple relies on hardware sales. FB's entire business from the top down is ad money. And source for a billion dollar ad business? That sounds way higher than my initial impression. (And google paying to be the default SE is not advertising imo)

https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/15/apple-ad-revenue/

There’s a lot of guesswork there. It’s even worse than that actually, they assume that their advertising operation will grow as Facebook’s. It is extremely implausible under current conditions (no tracking and ads limited to the stores). So yeah, if Apple were Facebook, ads would be important to them.

And even the wildest estimates put it far short on the actual money maker, which is hardware sales. When push comes to shove, if they have to choose between ad and devices, they won’t hesitate long.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#547

Post by paulmd »

celsoazevedo wrote: post #340
dnh44 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the App Store should not be the only marketplace available. Wouldn't Facebook then simply stop distributing it's app through the Apple App Store and then create it's own app store that doesn't have any of the anti-tracking restrictions?

Is the permission popup that asks users to allow/block access to the location, tracking, etc, tied to the App Store? On Android, it doesn't matter the source of the app. If the app wants to access your location, camera, files, etc, you need to give it access. I don't see why this new iOS feature to "ask apps not to track" has to be different, isn't it all part of what the "app sandbox" lets them do? Apple can't contr…

Yes, but if they didn't have to justify to Apple (because it's not Apple's app store) a reason they needed a specific permission, Facebook would just demand all permissions.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#548

Post by mattkevan »

ChrisKnott wrote: post #39
whoisburbansky wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a nice bit of semantic ju-jitsu to say "they take this data and sell a service that wouldn't be possible without it" isn't the same as "selling this data," isn't it? Especially given that the targeting mechanisms don't have any k-anonymity guarantees, and I'm aware of at least one paper showing information leaks through the ad portal [1] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_events/122...

Seems to me like you're more playing "semantic ju-jitsu" than OP. Facebook collect data to sell targetted adspace, they do not sell data. This is a plain fact.

Facebook don’t sell data, they rent out their users.

The more info they have, the more accurate they can be about renting out the right ones.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#549

Post by paulmd »

tailrecursion wrote: post #406

My guess is over time most free apps that depend on tracking will refuse to work unless allowed to track. And most users will acquiesce, just so they can use an app that they want to use. Even the Facebook app itself could refuse to work unless tracking is turned on. It's still a positive change overall, and still affects Facebook but it appears to me the effect will be minor, even temporary.

The Apple demographic is far more willing to pay for an app than an Android demographic, so the free app model is much less significant.

I'd happily pay five bucks once to never be tracked on some dumb app, and that pretty much is the Apple demographic at this point.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#550

Post by kergonath »

zonethundery wrote: post #504
balls187 wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be Facebook's legal argument in the US?

That Apple is unfairly privileging its own ads business. It's a tough cookie though; the offending behavior is simply Apple's truthful (if arguably hyperbolic) notice and consent popup.

It could work if they demonstrate that Apple does track its user across apps for advertising purposes without showing consent dialogs. I am more than a bit skeptical, but you never know.
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