Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#471

Post by jackson1442 » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

gameman144 wrote: post #288

Sebb767 wrote: post #34

User can still easily opt-in to tracking - so saying this is bankrupting small businesses is really admitting that they need users to be tracked without their knowledge and/or against their will . I mean, it was always kinda obvious, but seeing them confirm it out right is interesting, to say the least.

I could be wrong, but I think the argument is against the framing of "do you want this app to track you" being one-sided, rather than against an opt-in interstitial in general. E.g. if anti-vaxxers started pushing a campaign saying "doctors want to stab your arms with needles", I'd expect a similar pushback from the medical community about the perception-coloring of this phrasing (even if it's technically true). In b…

I think the prompt's phrasing is completely fair, especially since facebook can make their case in their pre-consent screen and in the string in the system popup.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#472

Post by arrosenberg » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #78

move-on-by wrote: post #44

I don't have Facebook and I'm generally skeptical of Apple's pro-privacy messaging. However, seeing this response from Facebook has gotten me very excited for this update. There must be more to it then Apple's generic 'Most Advanced Update Ever' marketing. I'm still skeptical of Apple's commitment to privacy, but I'm certainly happy to get this update. Apple should thank Facebook for the free marketing.

For some reason I have a bad feeling about this update actually getting released. I'm worried that FB is going to convince some judge to tell Apple they can't do this, and delay it for months or years. Maybe (hopefully) this is an irrational worry, but you never know the extent to which people will go when billions of dollars are on the line.

Unless FB is preparing an incredibly ironic antitrust/market competition case against Apple, I'm not sure what they'd have standing on.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#473

Post by czbond » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

cactus2093 wrote: post #286

rising-sky wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why this is getting down-voted, but I think the point here is the _fact_ that you have been put in a situation where, as an individual, you are concerned enough to do this is telling, crazy or not

This is really, really bad reasoning. Basically you're saying that there's no point in countering wildly untrue conspiracies with facts or evidence, the mere fact that people believe the conspiracies means they might as well be true? (I'm not making a claim either way on whether or not in this case it's true that devices are spying on us, just that this line or thinking is absurd that it doesn't really matter if a gi…

Is it absurd? My leap seems smaller and more logical than the alternative. The technical fact is that each of these features exist, and are used daily.

A device which does not have a hardware cutoff switch, which you've allowed to listen for it's own prompts ("Hey Siri, etc") can listen to you. So far we're all speaking "current knowns". Nothing about that is conspiracy.

The trust part is "storage of data received" and "use of that data". Sure it probably does not today - but will the terms of service change tomorrow?

An example parallel are Alexa devices listening, and accidentally storing whole convos.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#474

Post by prepend » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #284

_f1dq wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple isn't perfect, I'll admit that all day long. But, frankly, the "absurd prices" argument just doesn't hold water to me. I paid almost $3000 for the MacBook Pro I'm typing this on--eight years ago. Meanwhile, everyone I know that has had PC's have gone through at least two replacements during that time. A little over $300/year for a computer is a bargain. I pay three times more for Internet access!

I think you will find most people with PCs replace them because they think they need to. My friend just replaced his 12yo asus laptop which he had to keep plugged in to work as the battery no longer held a charge. People with apple products tend to keep better care of the products than the latter too.

> most people with PCs replace them because they think they need to

Why is this important. Are you saying that PC users are stupider than Mac users or something? The end result is that PC users go through more hardware than Macs. I consider myself pretty decent with computers and use both. My five year old MacBook Air runs fine, I’ve gone through two PC laptops (that were always bigger) and they don’t tend to survive windows updates. I’ve even churned through yearly chrome books that seem to be made out of paper mache or something.

Perhaps people are trainable to do the right thing. But it’s been decades, maybe we think about why this training fails on aggregate.

In the meantime, my personal experience of cost/year being cheaper with Mac vs PC stands for me.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#475

Post by jackson1442 » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

user-the-name wrote: post #146

jk7tarYZAQNpTQa wrote: post #62

I don't like the wording at all. "Ask app not to track" means an app can ignore a user's request, just like with "Do not track" on the web. The button should read "Deny", and the denial should be strictly enforced.

It is a combination of both. Clicking this will deny the app access to the very useful IDFA identifier, so this part is strictly enforced. However, when phrased like this, it does not JUST represent the access to the IDFA, it is a direct request from the user to not track you in any OTHER way either. And yes, the app can ignore that, but then Apple is free to deny it access to the App Store.

exactly this. Facebook can still tie your actions in the app to your Facebook account, nothing's changing there and Apple couldn't possibly control that. They won't, however, get that IDFA, which _is_ something Apple can control.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#476

Post by yborg » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

sircastor wrote: post #241

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm worried the iPhone mini will be canned next update cycle. I wish I was in a position to buy one, but I only got an iPhone X in Jan 2020 to replace my dying iPhone SE with great reluctance. It's too soon for me to replace, as it works perfectly and I can't justify the cost or the waste. I just hope there's a mini iPhone in 2 or 3 years when I need to upgrade. I waited a long time for a new small iPhone and eventua…

I got an iPhone 12 mini (my first iPhone since the original) I’m also worried they won’t keep the form factor around. It hasn’t performed well in the market. I like the size, but apparently most people prefer the larger size and battery life.

The pricing is killing it, and Apple probably knew it would, but they don't want to cannibalize margins here. There really isn't a competitive product, so they have no incentive to lower prices.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#477

Post by minsc__and__boo » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #370

minsc__and__boo wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple's incentives appear aligned with their customers Not in China: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy...

That's not due to Apple’s business model or their own choice. They were forced to hand over iCloud by Chinese regulators.

It is absolutely a choice made by Apple. Google said no to giving their user data to the Chinese government.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#478

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #378

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what would happen if all partied just came clean. This isn't about privacy or user data, it's a disagreement over how revenue is shared. So rather than this sort of wording from the article: centers on the iPhone data of millions of people and whether companies should be able to track We be read something like this: Facebook and Google go to war with Apple over revenue sharing agreement .

You should provide some data to support a bold claim like Facebook and Google is sharing their revenue with Apple.

There's one big pie, and these companies slice the majority of it up between them.

When one or another of them does things that changes who gets what sized slice, the others get upset.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#479

Post by specialp » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:03 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #409

DataWorker wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anybody that doesn’t know the code their device is running is a fool to trust it by default. Even knowing the code well, devices are compromised all the time. Yours seems like the lone sane opinion here.

We don't know the code of HN but we trust it because we can see the inputs, outputs, and trust the admins running it. A lot of people trust Google/Apple for the same reason to keep their devices secure but are aware that they might need to stay up-to-date and give up freedom [to install unverified apps] to achieve that security.

HN also does not have a microphone sitting here for me constantly listening for me to say "OK HN, post response". It is running as a pull HTTP connection in a sandboxed browser. I do not need to imply any trust in them provided they don't have some zero day exploit running to escape my browser and hijack my system.

Just as if my location/microphone were able to be physically turned off on my phone I would not have to trust that someone isn't always listening in on me. If I can't do that it is not unreasonable not to trust it. There have been plenty of instances of these things being abused.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#480

Post by brokencode » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:04 PM UTC

tbrock wrote: post #468

rchaud wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what's more likely than any kind of legal injunction is that FB and Apple will come to a "mutual understanding". Maybe Facebook will license Apple Maps (for a princely sum) and make some symbolic compromise on data collection that lets Apple water down the permission dialogs.

I don’t think Apple would bat an eye if Facebook decided to not publish their software on their platform.

I think they would. Facebook products are a huge part of any app ecosystem, and without them, Apple customers would be pissed.

Ecosystem concerns aren’t as relevant today, since both Android and iOS have everything you’d want, but in the olden days of Blackberry, Microsoft, and many other mobile operating system vendors trying to compete, they were always seriously hampered by their lack of ecosystem.