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The Framework Laptop

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Re: The Framework Laptop

#611

Post by RileyJames »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #372
IQunder130 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope this business of yours works out because a laptop that isn't a piece of junk with too much stuff I don't need inflating the price is something I've been wanting for a long time.

I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).

Definitely felt the same way moving from MacBook Air to XPS (under linux), but eventually I found the right settings to completely remove accidental touches on the pad while typing and since then, pretty good, not bad, can’t complain. Cause actually, all them track pads are about the same.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#612

Post by jeromenerf »

Nice project, even though I only buy second hand thinkpad.

I would be more interested in a more innovative approach regarding the keyboard than the ports. This was solved with usb3 for me.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#613

Post by EvilPaticus »

webmobdev wrote: post #459
tomtheelder wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the SD card example encapsulates the issue perfectly. I'm pretty sure that in 2021 that is an _extreme_ niche use case. I feel like only extremely serious photographers and perhaps a particular slice of musicians use them. It makes absolutely no sense for them to have that built into the laptop. 99% of people who own Macbooks or whatever don't own an SD card dongle because they don't need it. However, and ext…

> It makes absolutely no sense for them to have that built into the laptop. 99% of people who own Macbooks or whatever don't own an SD card dongle because they don't need it. That's the issue - you are speaking only from an Apple user perspective. Android (and other non-apple) phones allow us to extend our storage with sd cards, and they are mostly used to store and transfer photos and videos.

Is that an Apple user perspective or just reality for the average user? I recently had an Android phone for a while and never thought to use an SD card because it had plenty of internal storage. I can say the same about my family and friends who use Android devices, I can't think of any who use SD cards at this point. Even in the past when I did use an SD card in my phone, I simply plugged my phone into the computer and wrote to the SD card that way, I don't recall ever removing the card.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#614

Post by spijdar »

908B64B197 wrote: post #383
Brakenshire wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the particular problem for devices based on ARM SoCs is they’re not on the mainline kernel, support for hardware and for upgrading software relies on a whole pile of hacks on top of an ancient kernel version, and that means that upgrading to a new Android version requires applying a pile of new hacks on top again, and can be very laborious to get a reasonable, stable result. So Fairphone used a chipset whose…

Is there a reason why there needs to be so much tweaks to get the kernel running on a modern SoC? Any reason there couldn't be a "canonical" ARM64 standard for SoC?

There is a "canonical" ARM64 standard, so to speak -- ARM's ServerReady architecture, which implements UEFI+ACPI, which coupled with the right hardware, could create the same kind of ecosystem Intel/PCs have enjoyed for so long.

The problem is a lot of ARM SoCs have tightly integrated, custom hardware which requires modified or new drivers, and the tweaks needed to use them are often either very dirty and won't be accepted into mainline Linux without basically redoing them, or are occasionally just hooks for proprietary userland blobs to interface with, and are effectively obfuscated, satisfying the "letter of the law" for GPL but no more.

There are some devices like this on x86 too, FWIW -- Google's Pixelbook, as an example, has a few devices that effectively need a custom fork of Linux to get the audio device to function correctly, because it's driven over i2c (IIRC) and needs special blobs uploaded and an out-of-tree driver to function.

ARM SoCs could be more "PC like" but it'd be more expensive, which as far as I can tell is a big reason it hasn't happened. No real incentive as people don't seem to care if their OS goes out of date in 4 years.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#615

Post by southerntofu »

nrp wrote: post #299
ploxiln wrote: post #237

I don't see any mention of the firmware and drivers efforts for this. Firmware and drivers always end up more difficult to deal with than expected. The Fairphone company was surprised by difficulties upgrading and patching android without support from their BSP vendor, causing many months delays of updates _and_ years shorter support life than they were planning for their earlier models. I purchased the Purism Librem…

Our Embedded Controller firmware is based on chromium ec, and we're using a mature off the shelf BIOS solution shipping in other notebooks today. We chose our key components with driver stability across both Windows and Linux in mind. We know this is something we have to get right to deliver a credible competitor to all the great notebooks already in the market, so it is something we focused on from the start.

Hi, i'm interested about details. Are they on a wiki somewhere?

> driver stability across both Windows and Linux

Is "Linux" in this case mainline linux or does entail to use nvidia/ati proprietary drivers? If mainline linux, is it a free driver, or a binary blob? (see linux-libre)

> a mature off the shelf BIOS solution

Is coreboot/libreboot on your roadmap?

I'm not trying to nitpick. Congratulations on the hardware design that looks amazing (replaceable port extensions, clever!). I strongly believe software is also an important part of reliability/durability, that's why my questions :)

Re: The Framework Laptop

#616

Post by throwaway894345 »

jessaustin wrote: post #608
reaperducer wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a good text editing / development environment Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most" with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not impose your choices upon others with different needs. would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device Show me a be…

Show me a better multi-purpose input device that I can use to rotate objects on a screen. The obvious answer to the challenge is a touch screen .

I actually buy this conclusion for this use case, but in fairness the debate was "keyboard vs touchpad". So touchscreen > touchpad > keyboard for rotating objects. But for other things, having to reach up to the screen (e.g., scrolling), is worse than touchpad. With a trackpad, I only have to articulate my wrist while my arm remains resting on the surface; with a touch screen, I have to lift my whole arm and articulate my shoulder and elbow if not also my wrist.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#617

Post by GordonS »

danhor wrote: post #598
GordonS wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just had a look - I don't think I would describe it as a pretty machine, more kind of "inoffensive" :) But it is 14", fairly light, and replaceable parts is nice. Looks like it maxes out at 16GB, which is a deal-breaker for me tho.

> more kind of "inoffensive" Fair, it's certainly not going for the eyecatcher look The 16 gb option refers only to the soldered ram, you can expand it with a 32gb stick to 48gb, I'm currently running it with 24gb (8 GB stick). I'd have liked two ram slots, but for my purposes even 16 GB is enough. (be aware, some online shops might do the update for you and sell one with two 8 gb sticks, but I'm not aware of Lenovo…

Ah, then I misunderstood, thanks for setting me straight!

Re: The Framework Laptop

#618

Post by kayodelycaon »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #542
neilparikh wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mice aren't usable unless you're sitting at a flat surface with the room to hold one Trackball mice a good solution to this problem. I had work on a bed without a table for 2 weeks last year, and a trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like using the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to trackpad on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable if you do it often enough).

> a trackball mouse ended up working great (I didn't like using the trackpad, since switching from the keyboard to trackpad on a laptop is fairly uncomfortable Switching from the keyboard to something an inch away is uncomfortable for you, but switching from the keyboard to something a foot away is not? I don't get it.

The angle on the trackpad can be uncomfortable when it’s sitting on your lap.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#619

Post by nrp »

aidenn0 wrote: post #318
1stcity3rdcoast wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says there's a linux/no-os option

But only if you order the kit, not if you get it preassembled I believe.

This is correct. There’s nothing technical preventing us from offering a pre-built bring your own OS system, but we figured there’s high overlap between that audience and those who want to assemble a kit themselves. This reduces the amount of pre-built inventory we need to hold.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#620

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

boogies wrote: post #604
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. ... would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device So you want a specialized input devices for every task on a mobile device. That's an interesting choice. And I guess you also want to carry all these specialized devices around with you? > browsing¹, which IMO should be a slightly glorified text task where Pentadacyl/lu…

> uhh...tab tab tab tab tab Please take a minute to type the name of any of the browsers I named into your favourite search engine or package manager and return when you know what we’re talking about. (This comment was made via Pentadactyl). > The vast majority of all computer interaction is putting the cursor in the right place in the first place. This is why it pains me to use browsers where I can’t tap [count]gi t…

> This comment was made via Pentadactyl

Enlighten us all. What exactly did you press and what mental decision and awareness process was required to do it starting from the front page?

> [count]gi

"[count]" sounds like one would need to know how many like things on the page precede the thing you're trying to get to. Thanks but no thanks. 150! Oops, 100! Oops, 130!

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