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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

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Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#231

Post by Grustaf »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #229
Grustaf wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is that worth a year of suffering and untold hours spent feeding Suffering? Sure NOT breastfeeding is very inconvenient, not least at night. And few things are more intimate and loving than the act of breastfeeding. Robbing the child or mother of that is horrible.

Have you breastfed before? I'm married to someone who has, and suffering is an apt description of the experience, for at least a large fraction of the time. Moderate discomfort for the rest. The days when we started weening the kids are, by my wife's report, some of the best days she's ever had, because of how bad the days before were. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400324/#:~:tex... . "Over 90% of wom…

My children, like most middle-class children in Sweden, are breastfed. So I guess I'm about as qualified as you to talk about it.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#232

Post by watertom »

gdubs wrote: post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

3 children, we only slept them in their rooms, starting day 10. Naps, day sleep, everything, they slept in their room and in their crib. The room was light controlled, meaning there was no light at all. They quickly associated any sleep with their room and their crib.

We used a baby motion sleep mat for peace of mind for SIDS, the thing was so sensitive it could detect the breathing, but if the baby moved off the mat even a little bit it sounded an alarm.

Unless a baby has colic, and we used baby dophilus for all our children to avoid any stomach or intestine issues, new babies aren't very fussy sleepers. The fussy sleeping usually happens when they get older, but by then they were accustomed to sleeping in their crib.

We never once had a crying fit, we also never forced them to sleep, sometimes, just like adults they aren't ready for sleep, those moments were few and far between and we just surfed through those times.

By 6 months all 3 children were sleeping through the nigh.

Every soon to be new parent we coached on this method had the same success, probably 40+ babies.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#233

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

Grustaf wrote: post #231
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you breastfed before? I'm married to someone who has, and suffering is an apt description of the experience, for at least a large fraction of the time. Moderate discomfort for the rest. The days when we started weening the kids are, by my wife's report, some of the best days she's ever had, because of how bad the days before were. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400324/#:~:tex... . "Over 90% of wom…

My children, like most middle-class children in Sweden, are breastfed. So I guess I'm about as qualified as you to talk about it.

The only difference is that your position is in contravention of the evidence, whereas mine is backed by it. Breastfeeding pain is something the XXX vast majority XXX (ed: another commenter pointed out that only about 30% of women experience ongoing pain during breastfeeding -- so good for those who don't, but this is still a significant problem for many many women) of breastfeeding women experience. Some women are able to figure out strategies to mitigate it, but for some women the experience remains painful until weening.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#234

Post by tootie »

dlisboa wrote: post #87

Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child? You see multiple different styles in different cultures. Some cultures where bed-sharing and baby-carrying is common also beat their kids and use other forms of punishment for disobedience. Wouldn't that be much "weirder"? It seems in Europe breastfeeding rates are really low and people use prams, but they might not beat the child as much (…

Sometimes cultural differences can be self-reinforcing. Studies on corporal punishment and childhood trauma have shown that trauma increases when it's perceived as unusual. If a kid is beaten for disobedience and none of their peers are, it's more likely to cause lasting trauma. In societies where beatings are commonplace, kids are much more likely to adjust and grow up fine.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#235

Post by nix23 »

gdubs wrote: post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

>Just raise your kids with love. Be compassionate, and patient.

Right and i would add, give them as many time with you as possible. Some of my greatest memory's was strolling around my dad workplace, when he had work todo. Children's don't need parent's as entertainment, but as adventure preparers.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#236

Post by petertodd »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #223
Grustaf wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They trot out headlines from questionable studies from totally different living environments in the world that indicate some 3 IQ point increase in kids that were breastfed and then they act like it's proof that formula feeding is child abuse. Breastfeeding, apart from being cheap, convenient and natural, has been shown to have numerous benefits, not just to intelligence but overall health, even for the mother. The…

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4781366/ Almost every study on breastfeeding will have a disclaimer like the one in this meta-analysis (or ought to if it doesn't). "Because almost all the data in this review were gathered from observational studies, one should not infer causality based on these findings. Also, there is a wide range of quality of the body of evidence across different health outcomes." I d…

Also "Formula-fed children have about twice the risk of vomiting or diarrhea during their first year."

Yes, that's bad. But it's not that bad. Try your best at breastfeeding, and if it doesn't work out, so be it. Better to focus your energy in being a good parent in other ways that you can excel at than dwelling on what isn't working for you.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#237

Post by rtx »

Monroe13 wrote: post #219
rtx wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing formula is not abuse but neglect, unless done due to medical conditions. Don't fight evolution, formula is harder to digest. Why are you peddling pseudo science over here.

This is exactly the attitude the above poster is complaining against. Breast feeding is probably better than formula in a few small ways, but treating formula use as “neglect” creates a harmful burden on new - and already stressed - mothers. If breast feeding is difficult, feed your child formula. They will turn out just fine.

Facts are not attitude. I am not talking to mothers, as not my business. However peddling pseudo science should be opposed.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#238

Post by aidenn0 »

ragnese wrote: post #151
dlisboa wrote: post #87

Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child? You see multiple different styles in different cultures. Some cultures where bed-sharing and baby-carrying is common also beat their kids and use other forms of punishment for disobedience. Wouldn't that be much "weirder"? It seems in Europe breastfeeding rates are really low and people use prams, but they might not beat the child as much (…

I'm in the U.S. I personally know a non-trivial number of women who have gone through absolutely intense (real, diagnosed) anxiety and depression because of having to feed formula to their child instead of breast milk. If you ever get to peek into these "mommy groups" on social media or in person, you can see how much shaming goes on in there. And the breast milk one is one of the biggest issues people get shamed for…

As someone who has fostered and adopted children with trauma backgrounds (including abuse and neglect), it's doubly frustrating to see parents equating things like sleep training and formula feeding with abuse and neglect.

When you have a kid that was intentionally burned as a toddler by a grandmother as punishment for crying, and another that was left strapped to a car seat with a box of cereal so his mother could go on a meth-binge, it's frustrating to see upper-middle-class mother's calling each other abusive or neglectful for allowing increased screen time during quarantine.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#239

Post by nemothekid »

suchire wrote: post #230
aiilns wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well good advice in general, even though the way you phrase your comment makes it look like you think breast feeding is no better than the formulas. I am a medical student and we have been told at uni from professors (paediatricians) that breast feeding _is_ better than formulas I think with regards to asthma or some other allergic stuff. There are reasons that mothers should not or cannot breastfeed and it's not the…

“It’s been the way people have been growing up for millennia all around the world.” I don’t think this is a very convincing argument. There are many, many things that have been around for millennia that just aren’t that great. We’ve been living without vaccines, antibiotics, antiseptics, antihelminthics, poor nutrition, extremely high rates of childhood mortality, and high rates of death by childbirth for millennia.…

No, but the onus is on the new thing to prove to it is undeniably better. Before we had antibiotics there was a mountain of dubious products that could cure all manner of illnesses that did nothing.

Secondly, I’m also dubious of the claims of formula feeding as it hasn’t been conclusively shown to be better, but yet Nestle has spent millions in marketing getting much of third world hooked on formula to their own detriment.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#240

Post by ConfusedDog »

I slept with my grandma, mother when I was a child My son is sleep-trained to sleep alone in his room. At first, he would refuse and cry, and he woke up every once awhile, later he just got use to it and slept 12 hour straight. Not only he slept without any distraction (me), but also it is much easier on me as well.

Important metric I think is whether the baby sleep enough, rather than style of parenting. Sometimes it is just economic factor.

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