Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#131

Post by jaegerpicker » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

efraim wrote: post #26

jonwinstanley wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other stores from competing What about platforms like Playstation or the computers built into Teslas etc, should we allow sideloading on those? How do you define a platform?

General purpose computing. A game console or Tesla computer is not made for general programs, they have specific purposes. It's also a case of "you know it when you see it", iPhone wasn't a big platform when it launched but now it's the primary platform for many peoples computer needs, it should not be exclusively run by a private company.

Explain the difference in functional ability between the iPad vs the Switch? Xbox series x? PS5? Web Browser, email, streaming media? All possible on any of the devices. The only difference is that Apple is better at building devices that people like. Apple built the platform, built the hardware, designed the OS, and built the sdk/API's but now they aren't allowed to control their own platform? How does that make any sense?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#132

Post by kevingadd » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #95

parthdesai wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortnite is a free game, I pay to own my iPhone.

Then if you care so much about running whatever software you want on it, perhaps you should have bought a phone that lets you do that instead? I'm not personally in favor of walled gardens myself, but everyone who bought an iPhone knew that's what they were getting and did it anyway.

"everyone who bought an iPhone knew that's what they were getting and did it anyway" is an incredibly strong assertion you're not making an effort to support here. Are you seriously claiming that every owner of an iPhone understood the nuances of Apple's app store policies before they bought the phone?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#133

Post by kevingadd » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

IntelMiner wrote: post #100

mywittyname wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MS is ahead of the curve here. Rather than trying to combat homebrew, they are embracing it within some predefined boundaries. The 360 allowed for homebrew as well. I think they learned a lot from XBMC.

What? The 360 never had any homebrew enabled

It was called XBox Live Indie Games, you could sideload anything you wanted once you paid the initial fee, and then you could put it on the store and accept purchases if it got through a peer review system.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#134

Post by Wowfunhappy » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

dpkonofa wrote: post #122

kevingadd wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon got a special carve-out after a long dispute with Apple. https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206400/apple-tax-amazon-... This provides additional weight to Epic's arguments. They have repeatedly said they don't want a special deal for Fortnite, they want every developer to have access to either alternate distribution methods or a smaller cut.

That's not a special deal, though. Just because a reporter didn't know about doesn't mean it was special for Amazon. Your own article even mentions other providers that were already using that and, most importantly, it only applies to renewals of existing subscriptions that were started outside the app . It can't be exclusive to Amazon if other platforms are also already taking advantage of that same process. New pur…

I'd say a video rental is a new purchase. The customer may already be subscribed to Amazon Prime, but they're paying additional money to watch that specific video.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#135

Post by gwd » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

eptcyka wrote: post #117

gwd wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid (30%) is the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is via competition. The "correct" amount is the amount that everybody is happy to pay. If Epic doesn't want to pay 30%, then 30% is too high for them. That's OK -- nobody is forcing them to pay it. The competition you're describing isn't the cost of running the app store ; it's the cost of maintaining the en…

What are you on about? App developers are not the ones who should be monetarily supporting the ecosystem, the end user has already paid for the device. Not only that, without developers, there is no ecosystem. An iPhone without apps is less useful than an iPod touch with apps. Boohoo, the most cash rich silicon company will have to compete. Brew or Cydia never ate into Apples profit margins, instead it allowed users…

> App developers are not the ones who should be monetarily supporting the ecosystem, the end user has already paid for the device.

Where does this "should" come from? Just because you don't think that's the best way to run an ecosystem doesn't mean nobody should be allowed to do it. If it's a bad model, that's Apple's problem, not yours. If you think you have a better model, start a new company with a different model.

> Not only that, without developers, there is no ecosystem. An iPhone without apps is less useful than an iPod touch with apps.

The fact that Apple has a rich and thriving ecosystem demonstrates that their business model works just fine.

> Having multiple app stores will allow users to circumvent government censorship in countries where Apple is forced to follow the governments demands.

Won't one of those government demands be, "No third party app stores"? (Or, "No third party app stores that we haven't approved"?)

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#136

Post by fbelzile » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #18

ehvatum wrote: post #4

There is room for 3rd party app stores. Epic will argue that Apple does an absolutely ghastly terrible job of curating the Apple app store, as Apple really has little incentive not to suck completely. The EU court will agree. Apple will spend a year or two saying “it can’t be done”, then issue a signing certificate to Epic.

> There is room for 3rd party app stores. The "Apple Tax" pays for the maintenance of the Apple ecosystem. Epic wants access to this amazing ecosystem, but resents having to help pay to support it. Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount either way; or they'll fail to support the ecosystem, in which case Apple will be forced to turn to…

What are you talking about? Both Microsoft and Apple have had great success developing macOS and Windows while allowing third party developers to develop and distribute apps without an additional tax. There's clearly room in the market for operating systems that don't sell personal data and aren't artificially restrictive to generate more revenue. The fact that Apple cut the tax in half for small companies just shows how disconnected the revenue from the App Store is from the cost of running it.

By all means, keep overpaying for Spotify on the App Store so Apple can collect their 30% each month, but don't force me to. Customers already pay to use a licensed copy of iOS on supported hardware and governments have every right to protect the customer from perpetually getting screwed by Apple. At the very least, we shouldn't allow Apple to limit free speech so that developers can't mention a way for their users to save money.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#137

Post by dpkonofa » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

mhh__ wrote: post #115

dpkonofa wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't they just do the same with Apple, then? Force them to have some basic ability to load programs. You can even make it easy for users and put an icon on the home screen. To make it obvious that you can load apps and programs for it, they would just need to label it as "App Store" or something like that. Problem solved!

Because you don't have to pay Linus Torvalds money to run a program on a Linux installation - that should be the standard.

What does that have to do with anything? You never said anything about paying money. I don't have to pay anything to run Mint or Mario Run on my phone so what's your point?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#138

Post by pier25 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #105

It’s all about money. I don’t think epic wants a new App Store. In fact I do t think the majority of developers with legitimate complaints with the App Store want competing app stores. They all want, from what I can boil down to, the majority of the time, two things: 1. Control over payments (to cut out the 30%) 2. More control over releases and updates (particularly upgrade pricing) I think if Apple caved in on thes…

I think 30% is excessive but as a developer my biggest gripe with the AppStore is definitely the tight grip Apple has over what's published. You might work for years on an app and all that effort can vanish into thin air if Apple decides they don't want it.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#139

Post by fhood » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

Apple does not actually have a monopoly, Android exists, has more market share, more options and features, and a better ecosystem of compatible smart devices.

If Apple is forced to allow third party app marketplaces it is clear what will happen. Every major player will make their own marketplace and force you to use it to access their software and whatever other software they have paid to make exclusive. Epic is one of the absolute worst offenders for this sort of behavior. So to everyone claiming "you will still be able to use the curated app store", I guess that's true but only technically.

IOS will not be a better place should Apple be forced to go through with this. This is not being an "Apple apologist". I think we all agree that Apple will happily exploit the people forced to offer services through their platform. But if they are forced to take their hands off the wheel they will lose the power that allowed them to push through some fairly groundbreaking privacy protections, including sign-in with Apple, which I personally deeply appreciate.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#140

Post by kevingadd » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

Humdeee wrote: post #123

dd36 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does there need to be multiple app stores? That sounds terrible. Apple just needs to stop demanding huge chunks from app revenue.

Apple recently introduced the App Store Small Business Program, slashing their app revenue taken by 50% to accommodate the 'small players' (<1 million annual revenue).

The terms of that program are particularly nasty, though. You can't really rely on it unless your revenue is going to be way below a million, because it locks in for the following year. If you have a spike in revenue (hooray, good year!) your cut is suddenly 30% in the next financial year even if your revenue drops way below a million.

They didn't have to do it this way, which really makes me wonder what their intent was. They could have gone with a simple system like 'we look at how much you made this year, and everything over 1 million is taxed at 30%', but instead we got a weird complex system.